Executive Podcast #315: Storytelling for Leaders

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership executive podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. I want to encourage you to go to maxwellleadership.com/podcast, and there you can click on this episode. You can fill out a form, and we would love to follow back up with you. Whether it’s for some training, some consulting, or even coaching, around five levels of leadership, 360 degree leader, any of John’s content we’ve turned into corporate training, we’d love to be able to serve you personally and or your team well. Today’s topic is titled storytelling for leaders. Yes, yes, this is a fun topic. This is a topic that Perry is extremely gifted at, and I know that you use stories a ton, and we’ll share some of that throughout today’s lesson.

Chris Goede:
But tell us about the importance of this topic and then why now? Why do we need to talk about it?

Perry Holley:
I’m coming up against as part of our communication training, but our brains, human brains, are our story machines, not facts and data machines. We respond and react and resonate more with a story, something that I like it for stickiness. If I’m trying to make a point, can I give you something that makes it sticky, that you’ll remember it more later on? And I just think as a communicator, the more you can engage people in the conversation and use story, it will resonate more with them. I did have a coaching call recently, I was sharing with you before the mics came on that this guy was so frustrated with his team, and we’ve been in this coaching, and he got in a little trouble by being frustrated with the team. And he made this comment, he goes, it’s like they don’t even know that I was in their role. I know I’ve been in their role. I said, have you ever told that story of how you got that job, how you got that role, how you got to where you are today? He goes, no, I don’t do story. I just tell them the facts.

Perry Holley:
I said, well, that’s kind of the point, is that if you could put this into a story that they could relate to and resonate more with you, do you think that would increase your influence with them? And, oh, I never thought about, you know, how hard this role is. You’ve been here and tell him the lessons. And he goes, oh, okay. So we’re working on, how can he become a storyteller?

Chris Goede:
I love that because, I mean, stories, they make things real. They make things attainable for others that are around you. When they hear your story, when they know either you’ve been where I have been, or you understand the path of where I’m going, and you take them on that journey, it just brings it to life, is really why I like using them. And then, you know, I’ve led sales teams and been part of sales organizations, and you always hear the phrase, stories and statistics sell. And as a leader of people, you don’t want to be telling people. Selling may be a little bit strong word as well, but you got to be communicating in a way to where they’re picking up what you’re putting down. And the way to do that is through storytelling.

Perry Holley:
I don’t think anybody disagrees this is a good idea. But they don’t know how to do. How do I make a. Yeah. Where does a story fit into a business context? You and I are having a conversation, and I get it. You’re on stage. You’re gonna tell a story because you’re trying to engage the audience. Well, it’s kind of the same thing.

Perry Holley:
But I need my story to be a little more focused on what my team or the individual is dealing with. And so, you know, if I can do that, it really helps me to stand out and really, in a good way, it captures attention. It builds relationships. People buy into you. They’re more attentive. They’re more engaged, because, like I said, our brains are story machines. They’re not logic machines. And they just, people just respond better.

Perry Holley:
If you can get them engaged in a story about you, perhaps that involves them.

Chris Goede:
Now, I wanna throw caution out there, because I wanna make sure that you practice the story, you work through it, because sometimes I know this has happened to me. I have a story in my head, and I may not practice it or think through it, and I go to share it, and I have everybody looking.

Perry Holley:
At me like, what’s that got to do with anything?

Chris Goede:
What is he talking about? And the reason I say that is, is that, you know, if your story doesn’t follow a logical order, which. I like that word. Cause I’m very logical, and they can’t follow it, and they can’t understand it, they’re gonna be even more confused, and they’re gonna relate to you even less than before you told the story. So make sure to improve your communication. Yes. Let’s use stories, but let’s make sure we think through it first, because the opposite can, can happen. It can actually create more confusion for you if it doesn’t follow a logical order.

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Perry Holley:
So, if you’re a game, I’d like to walk through how story works and maybe just do a back and forth with me and you. And then I know we’ve talked about this subject in the way back on the podcast. So if someone’s hearing this, you think you resonate with it, you’ve heard it before, you may have, but I want to make it more practical about how you as a leader can actually build story into your communication so people engage at a higher level. And so I’m a big fan of Donald Miller, and we’ve taught some of his stuff before, but Donald Miller has, story builders is his company, and they talk about this quite a bit. So I just adopted his strategy or his structure for a story. This will ruin you if you. Every movie, if you go home tonight and watch a movie, you’ll say, hey, let me tell you what’s going to happen next, because this will ruin you. All Hollywood movies are probably laid out on this exact structure, and it’s.

Perry Holley:
It starts with that. Every story has a hero and leaders. I’m gonna tell you, this is where that comes off the rails kind of early. Here is. Most of us struggle with identifying who is the hero of the story. So let me the example I’ve used before, and I’ll just use it because most people resonate. Although I used in a workshop a few weeks ago, and somebody said, I never seen Star Wars. I thought, well, we’re gonna stop right now.

Chris Goede:
We’re gonna watch Star wars.

Perry Holley:
But Star wars, the original, first movie. Who’s the hero of Star wars? The first movie?

Chris Goede:
Okay, so I need to admit something. I have watched Star wars, but I’m not as big a fan as Perry is, so he’s given me some notes. So if the answers are wrong, it’s Perry’s fault. But the hero of Star wars is Luke Skywalker.

Perry Holley:
Very good. And so that’s. Probably most people would have gotten that. Here’s what you need to know about who the hero is of the story, is that the hero is usually the person who has a problem, has a challenge, has a struggle. And so when you’re thinking about you and your team and you and the client and the service person who’s got the challenge. So, usually the challenge can come. Donald Miller with the teach in three flavors. An external challenge.

Perry Holley:
What’s the external challenge of Star wars? What is Luke facing externally?

Chris Goede:
Well, that would obviously be Darth Vader, the Death Star.

Perry Holley:
It’s looming very obviously there. But then most heroes also have an internal problem. So what would Luke’s internal problem be?

Chris Goede:
He doesn’t believe he’s a Jedi, so he doesn’t have what it takes.

Perry Holley:
He struggles. Why are you telling me? I’m just a kid running around on a planet with a sword. I’m not a Jedi. To do that. But he also. The third thing that Donald Miller would say, he’s probably a philosophical problem, and most great stories have this. And what would the philosophical problem of Star wars be?

Chris Goede:
The bigger philosophical problem they face is the battle between good and evil.

Perry Holley:
Super. So you got the idea. So, we’re trying to decide, first of all, the story, who’s the hero is usually the person with the problem. It could be in three formats, external, internal, or philosophical. So, if I change this really quickly to say, think about yourself and your team or yourself and the client or the customer. Let’s just take the team. Who’s the hero of the story? If you were telling a story about you and your team, who’s the hero of the story?

Chris Goede:
The team would be right. They’re the ones that have the challenge.

Perry Holley:
And so this is where we come off the rails, usually with story is that we tend to think we’re the hero. Yeah, that. I’m here with the customer. I’m coming in to save the day. I’m coming in with the team. I’m coming in to save the day. No, the customer has a challenge. The team has the challenge.

Perry Holley:
You’re not the hero. They’re the hero. So what does that make you? And so if you continue with story, as Donald Miller lays it out, that every story has a hero, they have a problem. But then that problem. Every story has a guide, and the guide has a plan that’s going to help the hero overcome the challenges. So if you went with me back to Star wars, who’s the guide in Star wars?

Chris Goede:
That would be Obi Wan Kenobi.

Perry Holley:
And what is Obi Wan’s plan for young Luke? And he’s. And what’s Luke’s challenge is he doesn’t think he has what it takes. I’m not a Jedi. What does Obi Wan think about he should do? What’s his plan for Luke?

Chris Goede:
So he’s gonna introduce Luke then to Yoda, who will overcome the challenge of belief in the belief he has himself in becoming a Jedi.

Perry Holley:
Fantastic. So you’re on this. Let’s go back to the story of our team is your team is struggling with some challenge. The guide is going to have this plan with a call to action. So if you go back to dealing with your team or your client or your kids, you need part of your story is that you’re not the hero. You’re the guide. How are you going to help them to solve the problem? And you think of something that’s happened. So what was one of Obi Wan’s call to action for Luke to take.

Chris Goede:
The fight to the empire. So instead of waiting on them to come to him or as a leader in this age, come to you, then you’re going to lose. Right. And the outcome will either be triumph over the empire or avoid being crushed by the employees.

Perry Holley:
And that’s the. That’s the great thing about your story. You should always have. What is the outcome of story is going to be two. One or both of these is that you’re going to help them succeed or avoid failure. And so whatever your team or customer is dealing with, and you’re telling the story where you’re the guide to their hero with their challenges, how am I going to give them an action plan that avoids disaster or embraces success? That makes sense.

Chris Goede:
It does. It does. So real quick. So in this situation, just for clarity on the team side, the leader. Right. Should make sure that you consider the problem. The team or the client. As you mentioned earlier, we went team that the problem that they’re facing themselves as the guide with a plan to help the hero.

Perry Holley:
Fantastic. So let me give you. Let’s give an example. So I had a team, and they were struggling. This is true story. They were, they had been very, very successful. And all of a sudden, they’re struggling with the environment change, conditions change, markets change. Some changes were going on.

Perry Holley:
And my team was very frustrated. They had a lot of challenges. And so I want to call them really my outcome. What I’m thinking about is I want them to overcome. Everything’s not great all the time. I want you to continue to work hard, no matter what’s going on, and continue to overcome these challenges. And so I would tell a story I’m thinking about. They’re my hero.

Perry Holley:
They have a challenge. I’m the guide. I have a plan. So here’s the story I would tell. I say, you know, it reminds me of a time when I wrote a book and I put my book out and I asked for some reviews from some people that gave me recommendations. I sent them a book. And of course, everybody I gave a book to was five star. Five star.

Perry Holley:
Five star. And one day I’m looking at Amazon and I get a four star review, and it’s from one of my favorite bosses, a guy that I’d worked for and who I have a great relationship, and he actually helped me more in my career ever. And I said, john, why’d you give me a four star review? Couldn’t you see? I had all. He goes, Perry, are you really a five star author? I go, it’s hard to answer. Yeah, I think, well, could you be better? I could be better. Could you overcome, I mean, some of the challenges of writing what you’ve learned? Could you, could you be a better author? Could you raise? Is there another level for you?

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
He goes, then what? What’s the big deal about a four star? I’m just telling you, I’m giving you the message that somebody else probably should have given you was, I think you can do more. I think you can overcome these challenges and I think you can, you can do better. And so I call it my four star review story, is that when I’m thinking pretty, I’m pretty good, I’m pretty successful, what I’m doing, he’s telling me, you can go to the next level. And when I’m looking at my team and I’m saying, you know, we can go to the next level. There’s challenges. There’s all kinds of things around us, but there’s a next level. And they go, yeah, boss, we got that.

Chris Goede:
To do that so becomes a rallying cry for them. I know one that in similar tone to that that I have used in the past, where we’ve had a team that came off a tremendous year as we closed out the year. And you can begin at times as the new year sets in to see maybe potentially some complacency could take hold. And so I’ve shared this story as well about in the past with my son and the journey of his athletic career, where early on, and I take him through the journey of saying, hey, man, like, early on, even down in Pop Warner, right. Sports came very easy to him very early in life. He exceeded expectations back then, whatever expectations are in, in Pop Warner. But then it began to show up in high school as well. And I saw where he began to have to work a little bit harder that he went and did, didn’t become complacent.

Chris Goede:
Then he got into college. And even there, where you look at it and you go, man, at that level, there are a lot of talented football players that are out there, right? So what is the thing that is going to keep him from being complacent and getting left behind? And what is that? Hard work. And I watched him begin to understand that even though he’s talented, that’s not enough, right? He’s got to work harder. And so he would do that at each phase of accomplishment. And so that never sat in that he had that complacency from the previous accomplishment. So, I mean, the same is true with our teams, right. For us, as a sales organization, a sales team, whatever, we need to continue to out work, to work hard and improve our ability to serve our clients, versus resting on the fact that, oh, I was a good pop Warner player, I was a good high school player, and you got to continue to put that work in.

Perry Holley:
I love it. You’ve got the hang of it.

Chris Goede:
All right. Okay.

Perry Holley:
Just knowing that you’re not the hero, you know, whoever has the problem is the hero and that you’re the guide to help them that come with a plan and then relate it. Just what you did, you related to something personal that you can relate to. I related to something personal I can relate to. It could be something you read, it could be something you’ve heard of, but you’re saying, oh, it reminds me of a time. And you just really get your team engaged in the aspect of you’re trying to help bring them a call to action, a plan that’ll help them win and succeed or avoid disaster.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. So as I wrap up, I love this, because we talk about the ability to connect with people is the foundation for your leadership. This is a great way to connect. Now, what Perry’s saying is we’re not going to leave with a story every time we have a conversation like, oh, here comes another story from Perry. But the way that he laid it out and how learned it from Donald Miller and gave some examples. Today, there is a story in you and with your team for a lot of your situations. And the more you can tell that story, that leads to change. That leads to keeping them from complacency, whatever it might be, they’re going to buy in.

Chris Goede:
And it reminds me back to the law of the buy in right away. It’s like, okay, they’re going to buy into you as a leader before they buy into not being complacent next year. So how are they going to do that? Well, they’re only going to buy in when they relate to you, when they connect to you. So we just want to encourage you as you strive to continue to grow and increase your influence as a leader. Use storytelling in a way to be able to do that, and it’ll change the influence that you have with your.

Perry Holley:
Team, and it’s a great way to introduce vulnerability into your relationship with your team. Bye. Telling your story, how you made your way up and what are some of the setbacks and what are some of the mistakes. And as you tell these stories, people start to see you as a more authentic, real, genuine person that I really want to be connected with to do that. So that’s good. Thank you, Chris. And just a reminder, if you’d like more information, the learner’s guide, or hear more about our offerings or the other podcasts in our family, you can do all [email protected]. podcast you can also leave us a question or a comment.

Perry Holley:
We love hearing from you. We’re very grateful you’d spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive podcast.

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