Detachment is a Leadership Superpower

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining today. Before we get started, I want to encourage you go to MaxwellLeadership.com/Podcast. There you can see all of our other podcasts that we’ve done. Right, Perry, over 370.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, this is 380 something. Oh, 380 on the nose.

Chris Goede:
So, yeah, Perry’s thoughts on paper. That’s what they are Thursdays in a row time. Yes. And so they’re all there. As well as gaining more information. We talk about content pieces all the time. We talked about last time, even leading through change. And we talked about resilience and we talked about previously ascend to servant leadership.

Perry Holley:
Firm feedback.

Chris Goede:
Firm feedback, which, by the way, is going to be unbelievably impactful in an organization. We’re rolling that out in 26. If that’s something interest, fill that form out. Our team will follow up. But we’re grateful that you’re listening. Even more importantly, we hope you not only take this in personally, but you share it with your team and. And then talk a little bit about it in your next team meeting. Well, today we’re going to talk about how detachment is a leadership superpower.

Chris Goede:
This means.

Perry Holley:
That sounds dangerous, doesn’t it?

Chris Goede:
This means that in my marriage, I have the biggest superpower I’ve ever had because I’ve been. I’ve been told this.

Perry Holley:
You’re accused of being.

Chris Goede:
Yes, that’s exactly right. Now, this sounds kind of counterintuitive. How do you connect with your team as Perry and I talk about at level two and the five levels with influence and engage them. And yet let’s talk about how we’re going to detach. And so as we begin to unpack this and you understand it, you’re going to see this is an extremely powerful skill for a leader. So let’s dive in, let’s talk about that and make sure that, you know, as we get in, this is not about not caring about our people.

Perry Holley:
Absolutely not.

Chris Goede:
Because that’s not how we roll here at max leadership. Right. Like, we want to add value to people in all ways. So that’s not what we’re talking about. So hang with us because I think today you’re going to learn something a Little bit different that I think will help you as a leader.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, this game. I’ve been reading a new book and I. I kind of hesitate giving book recommendations because books to me are as good as where they find you. So what I think is good to me might not be good to you, but this one is very. I think you will enjoy this. It’s called the need to Lead by Dave Bur Burke. Dave is working with our friends Jocko and Leif from Extreme Ownership. This is book three in their Extreme Ownership series.

Perry Holley:
So if you haven’t picked that up, you might look at that. Dave Burke is a U.S. marine Corps officer. He’s a Top Gun instructor, F18 pilot and flew in the Middle Eastern wars and he was elected back to Top Gun as an instructor and he spent three years doing that. But in his book he typical to the extreme ownership type of books where he gives you a story and then gives you a principle, business principle and then how to apply it to that. But one of his principles was that detachment is a superpower. So I didn’t make that up, he did. But I love the thought about this was that it’s not about, as Chris said, about being cold, aloof or disconnected from people, but it’s about controlling your emotional reactions under pressure.

Perry Holley:
And if anybody could talk about how to control yourself under pressure. And Dave Burke was an aircraft carrier pilot. That was his real goal from ever was he wanted to land and take off from aircraft carriers and he got his wish. But just how he talks about flying with zero visibility, trying to hit a moving deck in a pitching ocean at night with no visibility, thinking you gotta be detached from what’s happening emotionally, but you need to be entirely focused on that. And I think it applies to leadership that we see as well.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, it applies the principles. I’m not sure the stress level you were just talking about landing in the middle of the ocean completely by instruments and then being responsible for teaching pilots that are in that F18 attack squadron. That’s a whole different level of stress than I was thinking about what I’m dealing with. However, we all have stress as leaders. We could be member influences leadership. So we could be leading family, we could be leading volunteers, we could be leading thousands of people. And we’re going to have stress that comes with that. And so when we face that constantly, which, how does that show up for me? It shows up for me with, you know, end, end of the month number crunch, what’s the type, time, timeline on turning around content pieces.

Chris Goede:
I got to have some hard Conversations. Is there uncertainty on what this. Yes. All of that is true for all of us as leaders. And that creates in stress. And so what we want to make sure is that as we’re going through this, we’re not reacting emotionally. Right. We don’t want to be, because when we do that, it’s going to cloud our judgment.

Chris Goede:
We have fear and we’re going to be frustrated. So detachment means that you are actually aware of your emotions. You’re almost think about being able to step out of your body and look at myself and go, what in the world, right. Is going on there? You’re able to kind of step away and be aware of your emotions versus being driven by your emotions. Because it’s even back to your example. Can you imagine leading this team, coaching these pilots and the emotional decision making versus being, you know, very, very calm under pressure and understand what’s going on?

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I think it’s worth figuring out. How do you do that? Is it, you know, thinking about stepping back and taking. Seeing the situation objectively from whatever you’re in? Could that mean I need to step away for a moment, take a breath? Yeah, it could be. Could be just mentally shifting out of react mode, bringing yourself out of going into a reaction to sit back and be proactively. Just look at this situation that’s happening. When you’re emotionally attached to the outcomes or the roles, the opinions, everything that’s going on. In the midst of that, you can lose perspective. And you think about in his role, and that was his great story about in this moment of where it’s all emotion to remove yourself from that and to see what’s going on.

Perry Holley:
Feel the plane, look at the dials. What’s really happening here, not reacting to it, but just taking it all in. And what he says is that these detached leaders then can create space between the event and their response. You think we talk about. I always talk about mind the gap. So something happened. Let there be a pause before I say my next words. So that gives me presence of mind not to react, but to have a thoughtful response to that.

Perry Holley:
And that space is really what we talk about where good leadership lives, is that if I go into react mode, there’s very little gap between what you just did. In my next words, it’s usually bad.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
If there’s a bit of a gap between what you just did and my next words, it’s usually good. And you joke about at home, that’s. It’s a very good strategy for home.

Chris Goede:
100%.

Perry Holley:
Okay.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, very good. We’ll stop the podcast right there. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, I love that.

Perry Holley:
Right.

Chris Goede:
To be able to self awareness in the book, you know, Burke also really emphasizes understanding your red flags. And Perry talked just a minute ago about a couple of them. But those signals that you’re feeling or that your body is telling you or that you’re thinking, you can completely understand. Maybe I’m losing a little bit of objectivity here. Right. Like I’m thinking a little bit differently. This is a red flag. My shoulders are getting tight.

Chris Goede:
Maybe my breathing is speeding up. Maybe I can feel my blood pressure, which often is where mine is. Right. I can kind of feel that raising up. Detached leaders don’t ignore these signals. We don’t just stuff them. We actually try to act on them as soon as we’re feeling them. And that self awareness is really EQ in action.

Chris Goede:
It’s emotional intelligence. Once you become self aware of that to then be able to control those signals and those actions, that’s really where you get that emotional intelligence.

Perry Holley:
Do. Do you have a go to. Do you do something intentionally if you’re triggered?

Chris Goede:
Yeah, it’s breathing for me, to be honest with you. Right. Like it’s just the. It’s the process of trying to slow everything down to be able to do it. I think it probably comes from just years of playing high level sports when you get into situations like that and you, you can feel it, everything around you is building. And then I knew the red flag for me would be blood pressure would be something else would be. And you just got to kind of reset the moment. For me, it happens through breathing.

Perry Holley:
Good, good. Why does he call it a superpower? That seems a little bold, don’t you think? But his statement is that it’s very rare that a lot of leaders, matter of fact, many leaders under pressure, most of us default to some sort of emotional reaction. And that stress that you were describing there really narrows the focus and amplifies fear. And you’re thinking in his go back to his situation, I’m already probably a pretty good level of fear anticipation. I don’t need that to narrow and focus and intensify. I need to dissipate that somehow so that I can take in the situation and make good decisions. And in his world, decisions are life or death. In ours not so like you said, not so meaningful.

Perry Holley:
But really leaders that can stay calm and think clearly in the chaos that you immediately stand out. I just noticed that there are certain leaders in my past that were just triggered and exploded in groups of people and Using bad language and cussing people and shaming people, all because they lost it. And thinking how much better their influence would be, how much better their success would be, their buying would be, if they could just say, okay, tell me more about that. You know, whatever your, your process is to handle the detachment, to detach yourself from what just happened and label it. We talked about last week’s podcast. I mean, you’re, you label it. What’s the story you’re telling yourself about what just, just happened?

Chris Goede:
You wonder too, if some of those leaders that have that and they blow up, do they do that? They’re feeling it. They can’t control it. And they hope, well, maybe if I do this, it’ll motivate the team to do it a little bit differently. Like I’m, you know, somebody asked me.

Perry Holley:
That once about, I led a division of a consulting division of a company before I came here, and client was mad and the consultant said, they want to see you. So the consultant took me to see the angry executive. This executive yelled at me, was cussing, was carrying on. I was asked, taking notes, asking questions, tell me more. Then what happened? I was really, and I was just staying really calm and taking notes, really just taking the verbal beating. And as we walked back to the car to go get a coffee, my consultant said, do you ever get mad? I said, oh, I’m mad right now. I’m steaming mad right now. However, would it help? And she said, no.

Perry Holley:
And then somebody said, is it ever okay to get mad? Is it ever okay? I said, I’m sure there might be, like you said, a motivational moment or some reason to on purpose, intentionally exhibit emotion, but not very often.

Chris Goede:
Right.

Perry Holley:
I just don’t think it ever helps. I think it triggers other people. But there may be that rare moment where you say, I need to, you know, the football coach at halftime, you know, trying to throw down in front of the team.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
Well, as we talk about the fact that this is a superpower, the second reason why he mentions it is that detachment will drastically help you improve your decision making. When you ego out of the way, stress is out of the way. It’s not driving the bus. Leaders can evaluate information more accurately and in real time. You can slow things down to be able to do that. And so when you work in a fast paced pace environment, a lot of change, a lot of information flowing in. This is a superpower for you to be able to do that. And so John often talks about how good leadership is really about direction and timing and in order to do that, both the direction we’re going and the, the timing of what it’s going to take, what it’s going to look like when it needs to happen.

Chris Goede:
Man, that requires a lot of clear thinking. And that only happens if you’re able to detach from the stress of everything that’s going on in and around your environment. And we have the privilege of working with a lot of our military, and you gave an example here. But so many of them are, are so good at this. Their superpowers, their ability to be able to detach from the chaos noise and then to be able to bring everything right down to, hey, this is what we’re going to do here and this is why we’re going to do it, no matter what’s going on around them.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, that’s really great example. You know, third reason Dave Burke says that it’s a superpower is that it. This is my favorite. It expands perspective. And that in these high pressure moments when you are. Most people fixate on some immediate threat. We detached leaders can look beyond what’s really loud and urgent. If you’re not detached, if you’re too much caught in it, you just focus on what is the most loud, most urgent thing.

Perry Holley:
And then we start throwing our skeletons right at us. How are we going to solve that? But these detached leaders, why I love this perspective issue so much, is that they notice secondary issues. They since see downstream consequences. They can see an opportunity and pivot. If you’re highly attached, you can’t pivot. You’re. You’re just going after it. I’m just going.

Perry Holley:
And you think about it. Hey, let’s just try this. Just try this. What about what the consequences of that. We don’t have time about. Just do it. No, no, I need to, I need to detach. And he tells the stories in the cockpit about losing the controls and then.

Perry Holley:
So you wanted to. Do I just punch out now? No, let’s look around. What are the secondary issues? What are some other causes? What’s the downstream opportunity? What can I pivot to right now? And you think in that moment, meanwhile.

Chris Goede:
The team members that were like, hey, what about this? What about this? And when you’re not able to do that and you get onto the other side of whatever the situation is and everybody looks back, answering those questions would have been very helpful ahead of time. He was also very clear in the book about how detachment works hand in hand with humility. And when you do this, you’re able to allow yourself to admit mistakes, admit mistakes that the team made and then learn extremely quickly from that. And we’ve talked a little bit about removing the personal bias on this podcast, but also others recently so that you don’t have this distortion of really what’s going on. And it’ll allow you to make better judgment and have better outcomes for the team. Just know our goal is how do we become the most effective leader at level three, Specifically when we talk about production and we talk about getting things done, hitting your KPIs, whatever, those are not only in your leadership, but in and through the team. One of these great superpowers that we’re kind of unraveling for you today in this book that Perry’s consuming is to be able to detach.

Perry Holley:
And I, I think this is really a big point. You made it at the top. But I want to make sure we don’t, we don’t close without saying it again. That detachment, as we’re saying it, is not distancing yourself from your people. It’s really distancing yourself from your ego. Any fear you’re feeling, any emotional reactivity, that’s what you want to distance yourself from. In fact, these detached leaders are often more present and more compassionate to their people because they are not consumed by the reaction of what’s going on. They’re detached from that.

Perry Holley:
They can actually focus on the people. Their care isn’t tangled up with defensiveness or trying to be in control. I can actually focus on you. And so as we look toward winding up, can we get practical just for a moment? Maybe you could share a couple of ideas about day to day. If you said, what can I start to do that would help me not get so emotionally attached, but detach from the issue, not the people.

Chris Goede:
Well, I’m going to pull out a couple of things that we’ve actually mentioned throughout as we were unpacking this, this content for you. The first thing is how do you, how do you take that pause before you respond to someone that maybe gave you bad news or is going to create chaos, like knowing that there’s bad news coming, something’s wrong, before you respond to automatically ignite the bonfire? Why don’t we, why don’t we take a pause for just a minute before you respond to understand what, what all is going to go into that, that also then steps into the next thing, which is how back. How do we begin to go? What is the root cause, like, what is this that is really driving this instead of, to your point, just marching ahead right away and starting to solve problems I was talking to a leader the other day, and we kept getting to a part where this leader is extremely frustrated around some organizational stuff. And while I was completely understanding and that makes sense, I kept going, saying, okay, that’s great, but tell me how the organization, the culture got there. Like, let’s back up a little bit. Like, okay, great, well, this happens. But, okay, that’s probably not the real route. I’ve seen it differently.

Chris Goede:
What. What. What got us there? We eventually got about three steps back because we were able to. I was able to help lead a conversation only because I was not emotionally tied to it because I was detached. And so how do we get.

Perry Holley:
How.

Chris Goede:
How do we do that for ourselves? Yeah, wait a minute. Let’s be careful, because when that happens, there’s no need for leadership coaching. And we’re going to. We’re going to be out. But how do you do that and making sure that we’re trying to make the right decision, maybe in a very emotional time, maybe again, maybe you’re leading the sales team, and there’s two days left, and we’re pushing. We’re just throwing all. Maybe that’s not the right way to go. How do you step back and say, man, you’re watching this team work.

Chris Goede:
And then how do I tweak a few things? Because I was able to detach from the situation to be able to do that.

Perry Holley:
Well, the leadership environment is full of pressures and change, and detachment is really about your being of emotional control. And it’s a strategic advantage. I’m believing in that. If I can remain calm, intentional, adaptive when it matters most, I think that really does elevate that to a superpower to give me more. It gives me just more brain power to focus on the issue versus allowing my brain to be consumed with the. The emergency that I’m feeling inside. So why don’t you wrap it up for us?

Chris Goede:
You know, there’s leaders out there that when they’re overwhelmed, they still are able to kind of see extremely clearly on what’s going on. Then there’s leaders out there that when they’re overwhelmed, everybody knows they’re overwhelmed. And sometimes you go, I can’t believe that’s overwhelming you. Other times they’re like, I can’t believe. How do you handle all of that? We’ve all been part of these situations, and so really what we’re talking about is how do we lead better? That’s what detachment’s really coming down to. It’s not about disengagement. Okay. It’s not about me detaching or disengaging from my team as a leader, as we’re working through these things, it’s how do I do a better job of number one modeling this? Because as we say, everybody’s watching you all the time.

Chris Goede:
Leadership’s contagious. And so when we get into those pressure situations, how do we do a better job of leading? And I think when you’re able to detach at times like that, it helps you clarify the next steps. It helps you clarify your leadership. It helps you clarify what you need to be for the team. It helps you all of that versus when you get swooped up into the emotional side of things. I know I’ve been there before. At times it’s like you have no chance of creating clarity. You’re just.

Chris Goede:
You’re going with the masses and we’re probably going to have to then reboot and do it all over again because no one was able to kind of have that out of body, detached experience through good or bad times as a leader.

Perry Holley:
Well, calm is contagious, as they say. I didn’t make that up, Jocko, and the team did. But if your team is spinning out of control, it might want to look at you because they’re probably with you to do that. Just a reminder, if you’d like to learn more about our offerings or get the learner guide for this episode to take notes, you can do that at MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. You can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you. Very grateful you spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

Transcript created by Castmagic.