Executive Podcast #218: How Great Leaders Spend Their Time with Joel Manby

Joel Manby is the former CEO of SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment and former President and Chief Executive Officer of Herschend Family Entertainment, the largest family-owned theme park corporation in the United States.

Joel hosts the Maxwell Leadership Executive Circle, a 12-month group and individual mentoring program focused on Executive Leadership for those who are or desire to be C-suite leaders . Have you ever thought, “I am overwhelmed with my job. There are never enough hours in the day.” Where should leaders be spending their time to be as efficient and effective as possible?

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Perry Holley:

Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:

And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. When we started this podcast, Perry, it was probably two years.

Perry Holley:

Eight years ago, a long time ago. Was it 200 years?

Chris Goede:

Yeah, no, but we are grateful. We started it and really built the foundation off of John’s five levels of leadership. And as we began looking at that model, we began to understand that it was common language that every organization that’s trying to enhance their culture of leadership really needed to understand. So everything that we bring to you is based off that methodology and fits into one of those levels. And I love the fact that even our guests the last couple weeks brought us five principles and five this. I always give Perry a hard time and I’m grateful because he always brings content.

Perry Holley:

I wasn’t going to say anything about, yeah, five years.

Chris Goede:

He says that there’s five of everything. But if you’re interested, we deliver this content both virtually and in person from a leadership standpoint, communication, all the competencies that you could think about that may be lagging in your organization around the culture, we would love to help you. We would love to serve you with some of our executive facilitators and coaches and content piece. If that’s the case, I’d love for you to visit maxwellleadership.com/podcast. And there you can fill out a form and our team will follow back up with you.

Well, today’s topic is titled How Great Leaders Spend Their Time. I love this topic because we just didn’t say, how do leaders spend their time? You want to be a great leader, you better figure out how you spend your time.

Perry Holley:

That’s right.

Chris Goede:

I feel like this lesson is directed at Perry. I mean at me. And Joel, for those of you that haven’t listened to our last two episodes, I’d encourage you to do that.

To give you a little backstory, Joel has been a leader at all levels and has led through good times, through bad times. One of the greatest impacts on my life has been the book, Love Works, that he wrote, which is really his philosophy of leading people. And it’s seven timeless principles for effective leaders. You can find that at our website as well. We carry that book. Joel’s one of our thought leaders, you’ll be hearing more from him as we move forward. But he is a three-time guest and we told him as we got started, we said, well the only reason it’s really a three time guest, I don’t if it’s a good or bad thing, is that we asked you to come do a podcast. And then we said we’re going to record three. So he didn’t have a choice.

Perry Holley:

What he doesn’t know is that if he gets on one more, he becomes co-host in your place.

Chris Goede:

Okay, anyways, moving on to the next.

Perry Holley:

Moving on, moving on.

Chris Goede:

One of the things that Joel has partnered with us on is really coaching leaders in the C-suite and the executive space in a program that we call Executive Circle. And I’ve had the privilege to ride shotgun with him and listen to the content and the conversation. And this topic today is something that he is dealing with and gets more questions, especially in his one-on-one coaching of those Executive Circle members. And it’s just saying, Hey, I’m overwhelmed in my job there. There’s not enough hours in a day and where should I be spending my time? Where do I get the most efficiency out of my day?

And you just share with them transparently. I’ve heard you say, I’ve done it wrong, I did it wrong for a lot of years. It cost me it was a high price and I spent 20 hours a day working. That’s not the right way to go about it. And so that’s what we’re going to talk about today. We’re going to talk about where Joel is and what he believes is how great leaders spend their time talk. Just as we introduce, talk a little bit about your heart for this message and what you’re hearing from the leaders that you’re coaching.

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Joel Manby:

Well first of all, I appreciate the introduction and it really is because I’ve done it wrong through some of my career. I’ve made some big mistakes both personally and professionally and we’ll get to that. And I feel huge burden to share what I’ve learned with other leaders because it is lonely and it’s really, really hard work and there’s no playbook out there.

I’ve done just a ton of learning myself, reading, talking to other CEOs and have come up with this five part model. And I know a lot of things are in steps of five, but it ended up being so relevant that we made the entire Executive Circle curriculum around this. So Chris mentioned Executive Circle 12 months of curriculum, but it’s built around these five things because how you spend your time is everything. And so it’s just very near and dear to my heart. It’s

Perry Holley:

Well number one, I love it. It says share the vision and strategy of your department or organization. Sounds simple, but that’s pretty profound.

Joel Manby:

Yeah. And if you don’t mind, I’m just going to give all five just so they know what’s coming.

Perry Holley:

Yeah, do that. That’s great.

Joel Manby:

Because you wouldn’t intuitively start here necessarily. But it’s share the vision, where are we headed? The second thing is share the values of the company, and live out the values of the company. The third is to manage the business and the fourth is to make others successful. And the fifth thing is to keep yourself healthy.

So that’s what we’re going to just walk through at a very high level. But sharing the vision is not just something that the CEO should do. Really, I don’t care if you’re managing one person or even managing your home, everyone should kind of share the vision of where we’re headed. And I just mean directionally, what is the department’s vision, what’s the company’s vision? And more importantly, how is every employee, they need to see their role in that. And when that happens they come alive.

And I think to that point, great visions go beyond the financials. It needs to be something that people can really connect to. It makes the world a better place. For instance, at Herschend Enterprises, which we run Dolly Parton’s Parks, it was “Make memories worth repeating for family.” Or at Sea World it was “Come to the park and help save the planet.” And so everything they were doing was to try to make the world a better place. And I just think that’s really, really important because once you do that, people know what the plan is and they know what their role is within it.

Perry Holley:

I kind of was brought up that you share the vision at the January kickoff meeting and that’s enough because they got it.

Chris Goede:

They realized there from the beginning

Perry Holley:

They don’t got it. The continuous sharing that, what’s your view on how often do you do that?

Joel Manby:

I do like at a big level, like high level, the CEO doing it at least annually like that. But then as you unpeel the onion, every strategy has a set of plans and tactics that every employee is assigned. And then there’s key result areas for each of those tactics. Right? It’s like you got to hit a sales goal. How are you exactly going to do that? How many calls you’re going to make, what’s your close rate? Whatever. That should be reviewed weekly I think. And so that when you get down to the frontline level, everyone should know what their role is rolling up to that macro.

Perry Holley:

Why what I do matters in the vision that we’re doing here.

Joel Manby:

Exactly. Exactly.

Chris Goede:

That’s great. Well the second one that you mentioned I’d love for you to talk a little bit about is “live the values of your department or organization.” And when you first introduced it, you said the values and you said no, no, live them out, right? Yeah, live the values. Talk about the importance of that as a leader spending their time living out their values.

Joel Manby:

Well most companies that I’ve seen have what I would call actually [inaudible 00:07:56]. Or CEO of Popeye’s used to say we have a plaque problem because people would put their values on a plaque and that’s it, right? Not a teeth plaque.

Chris Goede:

Oh, that’s where I was going. I thought you were going to talk about the dentist.

Perry Holley:

Pull out the dental floss.

Joel Manby:

No, it’s so critical that every organization defines exactly what their values are. You mentioned my book and I appreciate that. But that’s what Love Works is all about. Every company has DO goals and they should have BE goals.

Chris Goede:

I love that.

Joel Manby:

The DO goals are the financials. It’s what we have to do to hit our targets. It’s our sales, our margin. A lot of companies other than putting on a plaque, don’t focus on their BE goals. And I think that’s why cultures tend to be weak. To have a strong culture, we need to define the values of your DO and your BE and then everyone needs to try to live up to it.

Now everybody makes mistakes every day. Even with Love Works, I probably made a mistake a day on the values. The key is, again, it’s a vision. How do we want to behave? How do we want our leaders to behave? And are people holding you accountable? And I knew the culture was really working when people would come into my office and say, “You lost your patience,” or “You weren’t very kind in this circumstance.” And then the culture’s working.

Chris Goede:

That’s good.

Joel Manby:

That’s what I mean by living it out.

Perry Holley:

Catching people living the values and what are those behaviors? I love that.

Joel Manby:

It’s very hard to do sometimes.

Perry Holley:

I recall I read your book when it first came out, and about BE and DO, really, I thought I had not thought about it that way. And I started sharing that on coaching calls. It really resonates with people. We were always talking about DO, but nobody ever goes the further step about BE and it makes a difference.

Joel Manby:

Someday I want to write a book about what it takes to really take those values and integrate it into the culture. Because there’s several steps to do that. You can’t just talk about it, you have to teach it, you have to reinforce it, you have to promote it. And just only about 10% of the companies do that. So it’s really important if you want to be a great leader, this will really differentiate you.

Perry Holley:

So we’re talking about what leaders should do with their time. And this one seems kind of obvious, manage the business. But take that a little deeper for us.

Joel Manby:

It is obvious, Perry, but the key point is most leaders, they spend almost all their time there. So even though it’s the third one, most people don’t share the vision. They don’t focus on living out the values and they don’t get to the last two either. So I think the key point to talk about in managing the business is how do we get out of some of the day to day and delegate more?

And for me, it took me forever to learn this. In fact, when I was in the auto industry, I led as an expert. I started on the plant floor, I actually owned and ran car dealerships. So I had been everywhere and I led as an expert much more autocratically. But when I went into the theme park business as a CEO, I was forced to be very Socratic and ask a ton of questions.

But what I found is that allowed me to delegate more and I could focus on the other areas of great leadership. For people on the call who are listening here to the podcast, if they struggle with delegation, I have one question that’s really the best question I’ve ever been taught in delegating. The chairman taught me this at Herschend Enterprises. What is the worst thing that can happen and can you live with it? What’s the worst thing that can happen and can you live with it? And more times than not, the downside isn’t that great, and we should let go of those decisions so that we can focus on the other four parts of this model. And so if you struggle with delegation, it’s just something to think about.

Perry Holley:

Well that comes up a lot. We do a lot of five levels of leadership workshops and things and it comes up about are you doing the things that only you can do, and are you delegating the other? And John Maxwell talks quite a bit about if somebody can do it 80% as well as you, delegate, let it go. But almost every leader says, “Yeah, delegating, that’s big.” “How are you?” “Not very good.” “Why?” And it usually comes down to, “I don’t trust they can do it as well as I can.” I just love what you just said. Say it again. What the worst that can happen?

Joel Manby:

And can I live with it? Or can the company live with it? Right? I mean, man, I am so glad you brought that point. And you’re right, John has talked about that. Every day when I went into work at Sea World and it was such a mess, I asked John’s question, “What are the things that only I can do?” That is a great question also for delegation. And when you get down to that and sometimes we don’t want to go there because we’re uncomfortable with those things, even though they’re the things that only I can do, they’re very uncomfortable. And so you tend to go back to what you know and what you’re comfortable with. So I really appreciate you bringing that up. That’s a very important point.

Perry Holley:

Yeah. Delegation.

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Chris Goede:

All right, well number four on your list. Before I go to number four, it was interesting you said it’s in the middle, manage the business. And when you look at it, it’s almost the sandwich effect. You got the two heavy that you said are people oriented on the top one and two, and on the bottom four and five about yourself, about other people. It’s about the people side of things. This is as well about manage business. There’s some delegating, but it’s interesting how you put it right in the middle. You probably intentionally did that.

Joel Manby:

I did.

Chris Goede:

And I just kind of realized it now. All the times I’ve heard you talk about this, I hadn’t really put it together till just now. It’s interesting that it’s sitting right there in the middle between those two pivotal parts of, remember what we’re talking about here. So we’re talking about how do great leaders spend their time and you kind of put it right there in the middle. So I was just thought about that. I had a little aha moment as we were going through this.

Joel Manby:

And yet sometimes people think it should be first because that’s what everyone thinks of as leadership is like, well I just got to run the business. To be a great leader, you have to do the other things.

Chris Goede:

Yeah, love it. And so many people aren’t getting that right? That’s why it’s number one question that you’re getting through the Executive Circle. All right, well the fourth one is making others successful. So as we move back into this, the people side of the five things. Man, most leaders, one of the things we talk about in the five levels of leadership is that level four is when you begin to develop other people. They look at you as someone that’s adding value to them, and you become a people developer. You’re reproducing yourself.

One of the things that really pains us in all the work that we do around the world is there seems to be a lid at level three. People understand their job and their role, they understand they got to connect people, they have to manage the business KPIs, and then it just stops. They don’t get this next part of what you’re talking about right here, which is, hey, we have to invest in, raise up, and develop and empower other people and make them successful.

John wrote a book called The Leader’s Greatest Return. People are like, “Where’s the financial for this greatest return?” And you’re missing the point. It has nothing to do about the financial return. It has to do with exactly what you’re talking about here, which is making others successful.

Joel Manby:

And it is one of John’s mantras and he’s taught it for so long and he’s dead on right. Because, you’re right, most people hit a ceiling here. And there’s been a lot written about how to make others successful. But I think the obvious is put people where they’re passionate, put people where they have energy. That is intuitive. I think why so many people fail though, it’s the soft side that is challenging. And we have to have really tough conversations. And with remote work, it makes it even harder because it’s tough to have a tough conversation over the phone.

Chris Goede:

On the screen or the phone.

Joel Manby:

And these things that I see. First of all, a lack of clarity. People aren’t clear what they’re supposed to do. And the leader has to make sure there’s clarity. Another thing is a lack of trust. You can feel it and see it, but somehow that leader needs to develop trust. Another one is micromanaging. Sometimes we see leaders micromanaging and we don’t want to call them out on it, but they’re losing good people because they’re micromanaging.

And I know these are “negative things,” but this is where I see most leaders fail to have those tough conversations. Or somebody doesn’t like conflict. They see conflict between their employees and they’re not addressing that conflict. And so I think to go to that next level, I do think you have to coach people to be successful, but see the problems and have those difficult conversations with them.

Perry Holley:

I know this question is an entire podcast in itself, about trust. I know that most of the leaders, actually all the leaders I’ve worked with, they’re not lying, cheating and stealing. So they’re not doing the big things. And you can make a whole podcast out of this answer I’m sure, but what are the single thing you see where trust breaks down between a leader and their team when they’re not obviously doing anything bad, but what are they doing?

Joel Manby:

That’s a great question, Perry. One thing that pops into mind is when a leader gives an assignment, he delegates or she delegates and it’s not quite done well. And instead of going back and saying, you really messed this up, here’s how I’d like to see it next time, get back on your horse and do it again. Instead of doing that, they divert it to somebody else, or they give the project to somebody else, or they aren’t honest and they don’t confront conflict. And then that person loses trust immediately for the leader. And I see that over and over again. That’s when I said not managing conflict, having that difficult conversation is so important. So that’s what comes to mind.

Perry Holley:

Love that. Number five, this is got to be huge. Keep yourself healthy. Well, I love that you have that in there, but please tell me more.

Joel Manby:

Well, it didn’t used to be in there for me. I had this four part model for a long time. I added it because my biggest failures in life, both personally and professionally, have come because I didn’t keep myself healthy. And if I can do anything to stop someone else from going through what I went through, whether it’s a turnaround at Sea World, I was working 20 hours a day, seven days a week. I hate to admit, but there was a part of my career where drinking was an issue because I was so stressed and I just needed an out. And I’m not proud of that. But I sought help and people who read my book know this, I actually lost my first marriage, which is the biggest, I can hardly talk about it. It’s the biggest failure of my life.

I hate divorce. I hate that it happened, but it was because I didn’t stay healthy. I didn’t watch out for the red flags. And so my big advice to people is get rest. Look for the red flags. And if you’re too stressed and you go to bad behavior, whatever that dysfunctional behavior is, get help. Get help now before it’s too late. And we as leaders, even just getting rest, a great leader has to be rested. An unrested leader will not be a great leader. So even if it’s just getting that which is much lighter, it’s still very, very important.

Chris Goede:

I appreciate the transparency and the heart behind that. It makes me think about this last one that you added. Now that you’re on the other side of this intense leadership journey, you’re still leading in many different ways. But you’re calling out saying, “Hey, I got to lead myself first.” And John has always taught us we’re the hardest person to lead. I got all kinds of excuses and things. And I think, man, if you are listening to this podcast and you go, man, that’s me. This guy right here has a heart to serve and add value to you. That’s why he’s one of our thought leaders. He has our DNA in and through him and leading at the highest level. And so that last message was worth the entire podcast for me. And so I hope it was for you as well.

The five things, real quick, I’ll just kind recap as I wrap up today and I’ll let Perry close us, is remember Perry made a statement that he’s heard, what are the things as a leader that only you can be doing for the organization and begin evaluating that, begin writing that down. And don’t be so prideful that the list is 427 things. Right? Because it’s really probably only about three or four things.

And so in these five parts, I think as you think through that, you can look at each one of these and what is it in that area? And so Joel shared with us, make sure you’re sharing the vision and the strategy with your organization. Or if you’re a leader, it’s your team and how you tie that to the bigger vision of the company and then down even into the individual roles. Live out the values. Your team sees you. They’re watching you all the time. They’re aware of that. The organization sees you. Manage the business. Make others successful. And keep yourself healthy.

I just want to close with this. If you are interested, again I go back to this Executive Circle, it’s Joel’s heart, and you’re at a place where you say, man, this is lonely, or I need some help with one of these areas. That’s what Joel wants to do in this next season of his life. And so I want to encourage you to go to maxwellleadership.com/executivecircle. You can fill out a form there and our team will follow back up with you on how to do that and join one of Joel’s group. So thank you so much again for being here.

Joel Manby:

Well thank you. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Chris.

Perry Holley:

Yes, thanks Joel. It’s been great to have you and it’s been very meaningful for all of us. I just want to remind you, if you want to get the learner guide for this episode, you can do that at maxwellleadership.com/podcast. You can also leave a question or a comment for us there. We always love hearing from you and we’re very grateful you’d spend this time with us. That’s all today for the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.