Executive Podcast #243: Do Your People Bring You Bad News?

One natural tendency of leaders is to put forward our best selves. Like you said, we are not purposely trying to appear perfect, but we don’t mind if others are impressed. It takes a secure leader to develop a culture of authenticity where everyone on the team, including the leader, is encouraged, and expected to be who they are. How can we ensure you have a culture of authenticity that promotes psychological safety for the team?

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Perry Holley:

Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holly, a Maxwell leadership, facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:

And I’m Chris Goede executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Please go to Maxwellleadership.com/Podcast. There you can fill out a form and our team will reach out to you. If you want to learn more about the five levels of leadership, how we’ve used that framework to help cultures and organizations around the world, all sizes. It’s foundational to being able to do that. Fill out that form, do that. Or if you have a question or thought or Perry likes to always throw in here maybe a topic for a future podcast. If you’ll do that, we’d love to hear from you, and we’re just grateful that not only that you’re listening, but we hear this all the time, that people are taking this, having their team listen to it, then getting together over lunch or the first 1015 minutes of a meeting saying, hey, what was your number one takeaway out of the content that Chris had to say, not Perry. And then what was it about Perry? And just sharing that in the dialogue, and it’s really encouraging leadership conversations. And so thank you for listening and we encourage you to use it with your team as well. And that’s really kind of why we do this. We do it to help leaders that are leading people or influencing people.

Perry Holley:

I was in the Middle East a few weeks ago, and I walk in the room and people say, hey, love your podcast and you guys are great. You think, wow. Yeah, other side of the planet. Very nice.

Chris Goede:

Amazing. Well, today’s topic we’re going to talk about is, do your people bring you bad news? Perry, is there something you need?

Perry Holley:

Yeah, you got some bad news for me?

Chris Goede:

There’s always that news where you go, okay, we’ll make it through. And then there’s other news. They’re like, oh man, how are we going to make it through it? So I’ll be interested to see what kind of news that is you have for me a little bit later. But this is really a great question for leaders. It made me think about something, those that are on YouTube and following us on YouTube now, we’re grateful for that. You guys can see I’m holding up a tin of cards. And inside this, we call this the Leadership rules, the unwritten rules for leaders. And as you think through this inside your organization and your leadership, challenges are going to happen, setbacks are going to occur, mistakes are going to be made. And oftentimes I think being responsible as an individual contributor at times, I don’t want to share that with my leader. I want to try to solve it myself, and oftentimes that takes a little bit longer. That’s not the right way to go about it. Whereas if I would just share it with my team or my leader, we could probably solve whatever I’m dealing with a little bit quicker if it is truly bad news. And so I brought these cards with me, and this is part of one of the things that we do in some of our training. This is around John’s 360 degree leader content, and part of that is going through and doing an exercise that’s a lot of fun, where you go, what are my unwritten rules? And then maybe, what are my leaders unwritten rules? So that I know that there’s two that I want to bring to your attention as we get started today that are actually in here based off of what Perry was just talking about in regards to what drove this title for the podcast, the first one that I’m holding up is bring important things to my attention quickly. Bad news is important things. And so my team, that’s actually one of my unwritten rules. So they know that they need to bring things that are important to my attention. And the other one is bring any problems you have with me to me, which could be bad news, by the way. And so it’s just a great little exercise to go through that we do in our 360 degree training. So, Perry, as you get us kicked off, I wanted to bring a little show and tell to the podcast.

Perry Holley:

Raised your game quite something.

Chris Goede:

No stats, no data, not today’s. Little show and tell.

Perry Holley:

All right. Well, the way this came up, obviously in some coaching situations, people being dismayed that they’re just learning at the last minute about things. And it caused me to reflect on how I learned this lesson, was when my son was a teenager some years ago, he got in some trouble, and I was the last to know. And when things had settled out and we were recovering, I went to him and said, Why would you not tell me? And he had some answer about me appearing so perfect, and he didn’t want to mess up my image and all. I go, yeah, I know it’s tough being my son. No, I didn’t say that. It broke my heart. I go, what? And then I thought that was just a standalone incident. But then about six, eight weeks later, I was leading the sales team at the time, and one of my top sales people lost a deal but waited till the end of the quarter when we were counting on it to make our number. And now it was too late to recover. And I asked them, Why would you not come to me? How long have you known this? Quite a while. I said, Why would you not come to me? And I just didn’t want to mess up. You were such a perfect salesman and all that. I go, oh, my gosh. I had no intention of trying to appear perfect to anyone, trust me. However, if I to be honest, I don’t mind it if people think I got it together and I’m kind of perfect. And I didn’t realize the damage I was doing by I wasn’t purposely trying to mislead people, but I just wasn’t open about the challenges I face. And so as we think about this, I wanted to provide a few insights on how can you it occurred to me, if I’m looking back, everybody’s telling me good news. Nobody’s telling me bad news. Why are they not telling me that? Are they afraid of me? They’re afraid of breaking my little glass image? What are they afraid of here? I don’t know if you’ve seen that.

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Chris Goede:

But our natural tendency as leaders is to really as people. Well, we believe everybody is a leader if you have influence, your leadership. But, man, I think the tendency is to put our best selves forward. Right. Always. I don’t know about you, but growing up, my mom and dad would always be like, we don’t talk about this outside the home, and we act like we’re all buttoned up. Meanwhile, we get inside the house, and we’re a mess.

Perry Holley:

I come from a long line of holly men who hide our mistakes.

Chris Goede:

Yeah, that’s right. So we’re not purposely trying to appear perfect, but we don’t mind, by the way, if others are impressed with ourselves. And so I think that has a little bit to do with it, but it takes a secure leader to develop a culture of authenticity, and we talk about how authenticity is a trust accelerator. And so, man, if we can get to that point, to where everyone on the team is at that same place, and they’re willing to do that, and they know that everybody is just kind of wearing it on their sleeve, I think you drive engagement. I think people get encouraged to be who they are, and I think it just creates a great team dynamics. So here’s a question for you. How can we ensure that we have a culture of authenticity that promotes that psychological safety for the team to be able to do this, to be able to bring bad news to the leaders, whether you’re the leader or you’re a team member?

Perry Holley:

Yeah, it’s an interesting word, psychological safety. We’ve talked about it either last week or the week before. It comes up a lot right now. Is that is it okay? Can you handle it if I come in? Is it safe to tell you bad news? Is it safe to challenge you? Is it safe to dissent? How do you handle things like that? So thinking about for me, I’ll lay out a few things, but number one was, are you exhibiting vulnerability or are you promoting a spirit of perfectionism? And this word vulnerable vulnerability in leadership is kind of the rage right now to say, are you being vulnerable? And most people, when I ask in groups, I say, what’s the first thing that comes to mind? I say vulnerable if they weak and isn’t that the way we’ve been trained? But it really is. If you’ve seen it, it’s 100% courage. And so I really want leaders to be thinking about how do I create it in an environment where people feel comfortable sharing setbacks mistakes, failures, is that am I sharing setbacks mistakes and failures? Am I being vulnerable? A vulnerable act by a leader is saying, I don’t know, I made a mistake. I really messed that up. Can you help me? Boy, I missed that. And instead of acting like we’ve got it all going together, when I do that, when I show you, I don’t have all the answers. Although if you press me, I always have an answer, but I don’t have to always have the answer. And can I demonstrate it’s okay to take a risk and tell me about the mistakes you made because I’m going to tell you about mine.

Chris Goede:

I love that you said that, and I think it’s worth repeating. Vulnerability is not a weakness. And we probably grew up thinking that maybe some cultures lean more towards that than others, but it is not a weakness. And I’ve heard you use this kind of analogy before, and I love it where you say, hey, it definitely requires courage to open the current curtain and allow people to see kind of the backstage act of what’s really going on. So many of us, though, we just want to have that front stage set where people can see all buttoned up. I kind of relate this to that. I shouldn’t say there’s not any there’s not a whole lot of vulnerability going on on social media. No. And there may be some there may be some small percentage.

Perry Holley:

If you see one, show me.

Chris Goede:

Yeah, but man, everybody wants that front of the curtain where the front stage act is all clean and buttoned up. And that is not life, by the way. That is not leading, that is not influencing. And so we want our team to see our mistakes and our faults and that they know that we need their help. And then hopefully that is then reciprocated with them as well as part of those team dynamics.

Perry Holley:

Yeah, and I appreciate that metaphor for me was it is a front stage act. Social media, everybody puts forward the front stage act. The curtains are closed behind them. You can’t see the backstage disaster that may be going on, but we all have a backstage act. And so just being able to show that Brené Brown said something that resonated with me about that. We like for people to think we’re perfect, but we ourselves don’t really like perfect people. We want to look that way, but we don’t like people who are trying to look that way. So for me, when you stop putting on the perfect act, you become more authentic, more real, and I can relate to you more. And Brené Brown says people can say, oh, me too. If people are saying Me too, that’s a beautiful thing. That said, I really messed that up. Oh, me too. And all of a sudden, now we’re sharing on a level that we can actually help each other grow. At least number two was that are you encouraging open communication among people on the team? And open communication, I think, begins with actively listening to the people on the team, really encouraging the conversation. It’s okay to be open. It’s okay to share on the team. What are your thoughts on that?

Chris Goede:

Well, I think that when you say active listening, the key there is that word active. Right? So that encourages the listener to ask for additional context, be curious about the points of view that they’re hearing and that they’re discussing, and then allow space for you guys to kind of share each other’s ideas and additional thoughts. I think that’s the key to active listening, and listening is the number one way for you to show that you value people. I think the greatest compliment you could receive is someone’s like, man, no matter what’s going on around in the environment, like, when I’m having a conversation with so and so, they’re like, there’s nothing else going on. Like they’re dialed in and they are listening. And I think that makes your team, your people, feel valued. I think it also opens the door, listening does for you to exhibit curiosity, this is a word that has come about more and more. We’ve talked about it on previous podcasts. But man, when you’re curious and open to learning new things, I think there’s nothing but good things that can come out of that when you’re connecting with your people.

Perry Holley:

Absolutely.

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Perry Holley:

Th other thing I think about number three would be do your teammates feel empowered to make decisions and take ownership of their work? And the opposite of that to me, is really micromanaging. And if you’re micromanaging one message that gives somebody’s trying to micromanage my work, it speaks of lack of trust and if trust is in question, then this whole idea of psychological safety is going to be in question. So I’m looking for ways to ensure my teammates, if they’re going to tell me hard things, they have to know that they are in control of their work and that I expect them to be empowered. And we probably got a podcast on being empowered, but there’s a lot goes into that. Are people prepared? Are they skilled? Have they been developed and equipped to be empowered? But once they are, it gives us certain level of trust. That said, I can come to you. I trust you. You believe in me. I’m going to tell you the truth.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. I also want to encourage leaders, as you’re thinking through this, to have consistency in the way that you lead people, the way that you communicate with people. I think a lot of us, at times when there is bad news, we react and we get to a place where we’re displaying our emotions versus delaying them and walking through that process. I’ll actually give you an example, just leadership conversation I was having this week around what you’re talking about and then around these emotions. We’ve talked about psychological safety and making decisions, whether it leads to good news or bad news. And I have a team member where I think they were just in a place where they were stuck. And I think they were stuck because they were afraid to move the ball forward or make a decision that then would create a bad situation that then they would have to come share with the team. And it was bad news. And so one of the things I did just recently was had a conversation and said, okay, here’s the deal. For two weeks, I don’t want you to seek anybody else’s input. I just want you to make decisions and go. And I said, here’s what I want you to know. No matter what you mess up, if you mess up anything, I fully stand behind everything that you are going to do. And you could see the kind of the weight being lifted off on there because of the pressure and the weight of again, I allow people to bring me bad news, but they don’t necessarily want to bring you bad news. So how do you set that up? And I was empowering to your point number three, that leadership to say, hey, for two weeks, don’t ask anybody else. Don’t come to me and ask my opinion. Like, go make decisions. You’re empowered to do it. And by the way, I believe in you. And if you mess up and something bad news comes, that doesn’t matter. Just let’s have a conversation about it. And I fully support you. And so I think by that empowerment that you were just talking about then, that reminded me of kind of that conversation that I had with them this week and just wanted to kind of share that with those that are listening.

Perry Holley:

That’s great. And I think you’re really doubling down on the point that if I feel empowered by you and that I have that trust with you, I don’t want you to be surprised. Go back to your unwritten rules card is that I totally want you to be in the know because you believe in me. You’ve given me the freedom the power. You’ve empowered me. I don’t want you to get caught by surprise. So I’m going to tell you the truth and not wait for you to be surprised. Number four, I love this about just ensure you have a growth mindset and you’re promoting a growth mindset on your team versus a fixed mindset. Fixed mindset, people don’t believe they can grow and change. They tend to not take the risk. They don’t want to let their faults be known. They limit how they participate. A growth mindset person is learning and growing. Tries new things, fails, gets up, tries another thing, fails, gets up. They don’t take. Failure is not an event, not a person. To a fixed mindset person, failure is a person. And so I’m going to maybe as a fixed mindset person, put up a block, put up a wall. I’m not going to share things. I don’t want to reveal that I don’t have what it takes. A growth mindset person knows they have what it takes, but they’re probably going to get knocked down a time or two and they’re going to continue to learn, grow, learn, grow. And I just find them to be more open and honest about what they’re going through versus having that fixed mindset.

Chris Goede:

Well, for those of us that are avid listeners, we are now back on the average of Perry bringing us five points per podcast.

Perry Holley:

Because I ask you where number five was.

Chris Goede:

If you missed last episode, I want to encourage you to go back and listen to that because Perry brought us six points. I was a little disappointed. Now he brought us four. So we’re back on average. I did bring that to my attention.

Perry Holley:

Thanks for noticing.

Chris Goede:

Jake will invite him back the next time. I love what you said about this. This is a value of ours, right? Like at Maxwell Leadership, this is something that we value and I just want to encourage you that I don’t think we grow without being able to receive bad news.

Perry Holley:

That’s really good.

Chris Goede:

I think back. Now, listen, that’s not all true because there are certain things that we are intentionally and we grow and all stuff I think about the greatest lessons that I’ve grown through and learned from it usually started off with some bad news. And so, man, just think about that to what Perry was talking about, about this growth mindset versus a fixed mindset and know that failure is going to happen and people are going to have to bring you bad news. You’re going to have to share bad news. By the way, here’s a tip. If you have to go share bad news, share it right? Be very vulnerable, transparent about it, but share what you’ve learned from that bad news already and some things that you’re working on. I think that news will probably be received a lot better and help your leader maybe kind of delay their emotions if you come in like that. And I just think that’s key to understand that bad news is coming. It reminds me of your title. Tuesdays are coming. Bad news is coming. So how do we receive that? What do we learn from it? How do we go from it? Because we do want to have that growth mindset. Well, as I wrap up just real quick, the four points that Perry brought to us this week is, are you exhibiting vulnerability and promoting a spirit or promoting a spirit of perfectionism? Number two, are you encouraging open communication among the people on your team? Number three, another area to consider is if your teammates feel empowered to make decisions and take ownership of their work. And then finally, what we just talked about in regards to man, we want to make sure that we’re ensuring that we have a growth mindset on our team and with yourself. So, Perry, wrap it up for us. We appreciate the content once again in this podcast.

Perry Holley:

Well, I should remind you, if people aren’t telling you bad news, it’s dysfunctional because it’s not all rainbows and lollipops. There’s things going on out there, and it’s a great just take a look around. Is it all good news, then people might be holding back. You want to give them that permission to share with you. We’re grateful you’d be here. And just a reminder, if you like the learner guide for this episode, you can get that as well as leave a question or a comment MaxwellLeadership.com/Podcast. We love hearing from you, and we’re very grateful you’d spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership executive podcast.