Executive Podcast #302: How Likable Are You?

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Love the fact that you guys continue to listen. Perry and I, man, we’re so grateful. The feedback that we get about how you’re using this. So, man, use this personal growth, team growth, whatever that might look like if the learner guy would add value to you and your team. As you dissect some of this content, I want to encourage you. Go to maxwellleadership.com/podcast.

Chris Goede:
There you can download that. You can also click on this podcast and submit a question or learn more about what we do with organizations. Now, we’re going to talk about this title, and before I do, I want to put a disclaimer out there. This is not you, okay? This is not you. Immediately, you’re going to think about maybe somebody on your team that this could be, okay? And here’s Perry’s title. How likable are you? And I’m like, what does that mean? How likable are you? Like, I told him right before we started, I was like, man, we’re really. I mean, this is mean. We’re getting after some people, but how likable are you? And I think it’s a really good question.

Chris Goede:
It’s interesting, you know, John says that, man, people are not going to make the journey with you if they don’t like you. Think about this, right? Like, you don’t go on vacation with people that you don’t like, right? No. No, I’m not doing that. I’m not going to take that journey with you. And so people are not going to go along with you unless they can get along with you. And so it comes down to, and we’re gonna talk about this from an engaging standpoint. How engaging or how likable are you as an individual?

Perry Holley:
Well, it came up from a client that said, could you help? Some of our front customer facing customer service reps are just making customers angry. I go, what’s that? They’re just not likable. I go, well, why aren’t they likable? Did you hire likable people?

Chris Goede:
I’m thinking right now about 24 different organizations that that example could potentially be.

Perry Holley:
Let me ask you, how important is likability?

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Now, listen, I’m a big fan of it. But let me be very clear, okay? You need to be likable. But I also want to make sure people understand that you also have to lead. Right. And at times, it may come across, there’s a difference, I think, between wanting to be liked, okay. And leading and being likable and leading to. So that could even be a podcast where you’re down the road.

Chris Goede:
Those are two different examples. And what we’re talking about today is, man, we gotta lead. But how do you become, or how. How do you come across? What are the attributes to be likable? I think. I think it’s extremely important we can.

Perry Holley:
Actually build it into this podcast. Cause I’m thinking, you know, I’m. My personality is. I’m a bit of a pleaser. I want to be liked. I want you to like me. But could that get in the way of my leadership? Are you driven that way?

Chris Goede:
Yes, absolutely.

Perry Holley:
But we’re not the same temperament. But I. Very close in some ways. But when you think about the most likable people, you know, not trying to be people pleasers or, you know, please like me, but I mean, just likable general that you see in leadership, are there characteristics that come to mind?

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And no matter what your personality is, okay, so this is. You could look at it and say, well, I’m often attracted to those that are wired just like me. There may be some of that, but I. I think when I thought about this, I thought, okay, well, no matter what your personality is, if you have positivity, I love. Well, I cannot stand negativity. Right? Like, realistic. I got it.

Chris Goede:
But not. Not negativity. Humility, integrity. Approachable. I love that word. And then this is something that’s not talked about enough in leadership, which is consistency. Like, what are those things? Like, man, I love. You know, I mean, the last thing that when I think about somebody, if I think they’re not likable, it’s just I don’t know what I’m going to get that day.

Chris Goede:
Right. And so those are some things that come to my mind. And so to understand this, and these are just Chris’s, some of Chris’s thoughts, characteristics that Perry asked me. But part of where we’re going is, again, we’re going back to self aware. Like, how self aware are you? Because I think it’s. It’s easy for us to overestimate how likable we are. That’s why I started off the podcast today by saying, this is not you. Because I promise you that most all of us go, oh, no, I’m likable.

Chris Goede:
Right. And to your point, in previous, you’d be like, well, you might want to mind your face if you think you’re likable. And so what we’re really talking about, when all this comes down to it for us, is emotional intelligence. How aware are we of our emotional intelligence?

Perry Holley:
One thing I noticed and why this client, this came up, it was, it’s not that you’re not a likeable person. It’s what your focus is. 2024 is proving to be a challenging year for a lot of businesses. Yeah, it’s not a bad year, but. But what happened easily in the last two or three years is not happening easily now. And so we’re having to work harder and maybe get less for it. And so people are feeling it, and the leadership can be feeling it. So even though you are by nature a likable person, you’re so focused 100% on the challenge of getting the business, of getting the results that you can forget some of these things that make work enjoyable for your team.

Perry Holley:
And again, we’re going back to developing your influences that I feel like I’m just following you because I have to, because we got to get the job done. Done. And you’re driving me hard, and you’re not connecting with me and those types of things. There’s. There’s going to be some simple things here that are, that just remind you to, you know, can I just put this into my daily actions to say I can still be a likable person in tough times, in, in challenging times. So.

Chris Goede:
And that reminds me that as we talk about in the five levels, even as you go into go mode, production mode, level three. Right. You never leave level two behind. Right. So you’re going to be in go mode. But, man, don’t, don’t not be likable through those tough times. And by the way, if you figure out how to really kind of master this and it becomes, you know, a pure motive of yours, what ends up happening is in tough times, people understand and give you a little more grace then. And I’ve.

Chris Goede:
I have not always done this perfect because I was thinking through some examples as you was talking and when the plates are spinning or whatnot, like, I may come across, we did a podcast a couple weeks ago about, and that was on my intent not to be likable, but the impact I had was that I was not likable. And so I need to be aware of that.

Perry Holley:
Well, I’ve got a couple of things. They’re going to sound simplistic, but I want you to tell me your thoughts on that. We’ll just do a little back and forth. But I did a little digging about what makes people come across as likable, and one of them, probably one of the top ones, was said they ask more questions. What does asking more questions have to do?

Chris Goede:
So from my perspective, here’s a couple of things that I think about when you say that, why are they likable? Number one, they’re inviting my ideas. Right. They’re asking questions. Behind that. I think they’re modeling safeness in asking questions, no matter what they are. What does that look like they’re modeling for me? Um, they don’t. This is, this I wrote down. They don’t act like they know everything.

Chris Goede:
That, boy, I’ll tell you what. Like that. That bothers me, that that becomes unlikable when there’s always an answer.

Perry Holley:
You’re the smartest one in the room.

Chris Goede:
100%. Yeah, 100%.

Perry Holley:
So those are a couple things asking. You’re not telling, which is, again, a good thing. You’re asking for people’s input. You’re hearing their voice. And we talk a lot about curiosity, just having a spirit of curiosity to say, I’m curious about you, about your job, about how we’re doing, about how we could do it better. There’s all kinds of ways that go there. Another one that came pretty top to the list. It must be a new generational thing.

Perry Holley:
But put away your phone. What do you think?

Chris Goede:
Why?

Perry Holley:
Does that make you more likeable?

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And tell the audience what you put here in your notes. Right behind that.

Perry Holley:
Oh, yeah. And, well, I’m noticing 100%.

Chris Goede:
That’s why I want you to say it.

Perry Holley:
Mind your wrist.

Chris Goede:
Yes.

Perry Holley:
Because I’m noticing people are getting smarter about, hey, I probably shouldn’t look at my phone while I’m talking to you, but then the minute my wrist buzzes, I go like this.

Chris Goede:
Yes. I was in this phase where my family wanted to get me a watch, right? So I’m like, no, I don’t want it. No, you need it. You don’t ever answer our calls. Right? You don’t ever answer our texts, which I’m bad about that. And I’m like, no, I’m not going to do that because I purposely at times already don’t answer my phone or don’t look at my phone. Not great at it. Could definitely get better at it.

Chris Goede:
But if it is, if I’m at the table and we’re having lunch or a meeting, and it’s on my wrist right here. We all, that’s why I want you to talk about it, because it happens every day. People, as soon as it goes off, what do they do? They at least are looking at it and they’re checking. It may not be important to them, but they want to know what it did. And so what does that communicating to me when you start talking about this likability is that they don’t necessarily respect my time. They’re not present. They’re thinking about something. And so I don’t think that’s like, why don’t be around somebody like that? So I’m glad you talked about that because I, that is becoming more and more of an issue for me personally.

Perry Holley:
It’s a discipline and you have to practice it. And I’m in front of a lot of audiences and my, my watch will vibrate while I’m speaking and I just accounted as quite the I’m not going to look.

Chris Goede:
You have to not.

Perry Holley:
But I’ve also noticed that my phone has some settings where I can turn that off while I’m, while I’m with people and I can turn it on when I’m privately in my office working on email, whatever to do that you also, there’s some settings that you can set that only certain people can get through. So if we have a significant other that needs to have access to you. Twenty four seven, I know that only that person can get through or only my kids can get through, but all the rest of my address book is being blocked until I turn it back off to do that.

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Perry Holley:
Another one that came near the top of the list. This one’s a little, it might sound a little odd to some people, but if you know where it came from, you’ll know why it’s important. It says greeting people and using their name. Saying their name, Chris. Saying your name, chris. You know, and why is that?

Chris Goede:
Making it more like it is the thing that we enjoy hearing the most. And I know research in the past has talked about how it has such a positive effect. When we use the first name and you’re greeting people by name, it shows that you value their identity, which will make you even more likeable. There’s a personal connection there. And so, as I was thinking through this, I was getting even more and more frustrated because I am horrible with names. Horrible with names. And so it’s extremely important, though, to be likable, is that when you do greet people by name, it just has that positive effect. And positivity, to me, is tied to likeability.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Right. And Dale Carnegie said it, the most important to them is their name. And so, you know, if you’re walking in a crowded place and somebody said, chris, you would look around, you don’t even know where it came, but you’re attuned to your name. So when you use people’s names a couple of times, three times in a conversation, it makes it more personable, makes me feel important, makes me remember you, because, boy, you really knew that.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
You know my name to do that. All right. Your favorite one is that what makes people more. More likable is smile. And what’s your favorite mind? Your face.

Chris Goede:
That’s exactly right. Right. What I love about this and likability is this. Smiling transcends all types of barriers and cultures. We couldn’t even speak the same language, but if we smiled, it would make it more likeable. It would attract me to that individual. It promotes positive emotions. And I often think about you when you share the story, and I do it now, too, which is when we walk through the airport, and Perry and I are in a lot of airports.

Chris Goede:
Perry has taught me to look at people and smile almost uncomfortably until they smile back. Right. Because you’re like, I am going to get that now. It doesn’t always work. It doesn’t. Right. Like we. We live in Atlanta, the busiest airport.

Chris Goede:
It doesn’t always work in Atlanta. It may work in some other cities, but. But it’s just. It’s something that’s contagious. Right. And it just pulls you in. It has a positive effect when you smile at other people.

Perry Holley:
I got an elevator recently, and I was.

Chris Goede:
Why does everybody just not talk in an elevator?

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I just got. Again, I was the last one in. Was kind of crowded. I gave a big smile. How was everyone? And I turn around, like, we supposed to turn around and face the door, and I heard somebody kind of snicker, and somebody else kind of smiled and, like, it made a smile.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Well, do I seem more likable? Am I more memorable? Of course. You know, I love that. But, you know, a lot of people said, are you happy? Yeah, I’m happy. Well, tell your face, you know, happy to do that.

Chris Goede:
I think elevators are. This is not proper grammar. Are probably the least happy place in the world. Like, everybody gets on, just doesn’t even look or talk to each other.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, don’t do that. Another one to make yourself more likeable is not seeking attention of others, not trying to be the main source of attention or drawing attention to yourself. What are your thoughts about that?

Chris Goede:
This is back to one of my early comments when you asked me about the characteristics. For me, just shows a lot of humility, and it shows that you’re engaged in what I have to say. Like, you’re actively listening and that you’re open to learn. And that’s just something that appeals to me.

Perry Holley:
One thing that John talks about, another one is called follow the platinum rule. You want to tell them what that is? Yeah.

Chris Goede:
The platinum rule for us is to make sure that you are leading people the way they need to be led, and so you need to make sure that you know that. And one of the ways to do that is, I believe, is to make sure that you are others oriented, and that you want to make sure you do that. Hey, one other thing before we move on, one of the ones you had in here, I want to. I want to talk about, for just a minute, you talked about likable, is making sure, and this is tied to the platinum rule. But you. You specifically, my notes put, you know, know who to touch and who not to touch. Now, any of you that are in HR, which we deal with, a lot of HR team, this is not where we’re going. But, for example, pat on the shoulder.

Chris Goede:
You know, a pat on the back. Hey, great job. Hey, a fist pump, whatever. My handshake or whatever. And so this is something that, um, is so we don’t even think about it, but it’s something you really need to be aware of. And I tend to be a little bit more like, especially around here. Mark Cole. I’ve been around this.

Chris Goede:
It’s just like, hey, let’s give everybody a hug. We are. And I’ll never forget my now executive partner, Angie. Like, I remember she came in for an interview, and I’m, like, so excited about everybody’s coming in. I’m like. And I just remember this awkward embrace. And what I didn’t understand in the moment is my fault. I should have known this is that I didn’t appear very likable to her, because that is a no no.

Chris Goede:
Right. And we still. We laugh about it today, even now. Like, I’m like, go to fist bumper. And I’m like, we good? You know, like. But you got to know that. And to your point with, if you know how other people need to be led and connected with, it’ll make you become more likeable.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. Don’t be touching people that don’t want to be touched, and don’t be touching inappropriately. But there is a lot, like you said, a hand on the shoulder. And around here, it is a hugging environment. There is the fist bump, the handshake. But you need to be really attentive to what other people like or don’t like on that. Another one about being. Balancing passion and fun.

Perry Holley:
I thought that was interesting on the list, but, um, ideas on that. What was that? Well, being likeable had to do with that.

Chris Goede:
I think when we think about fun, no matter what your fun is, whatever fun is for you, whoever you’re having fun with, and whatever that might look like, it becomes that likeable environment. Right. And so it becomes contagious. So if they’re, you know, if they have a lot of passion and they’re having fun, like it is going to draw. It’s contagious. It’s going to draw you into that whether you like it or not. And so I’m glad it’s on the list. I think it’s true.

Chris Goede:
Uh, you. You’re gradually gravitated towards that.

Perry Holley:
The last one I put is one of my favorites, one of the biggest learnings of my life. I just wish I had known it so much earlier. But Dale Carnegie said that you can make more friends, be more likable in two weeks by being interested in others than you can in two years of trying to get them interested in you. And I just shortened that to me to remind me when I’m with people. Be interested, Perry. Not interesting. And it’s so tempting to want to be the interesting one in the room. I want you talking about me.

Perry Holley:
It’s my favorite subject. Why don’t we talk about me? Not your favorite. Your favorite subject’s you. And so for me, as a leader, trying to be likable and to be engaging and have influence, I think this is a beautiful one to say, be interested in others and stop trying to get them interested in you. Does that resonate with you?

Chris Goede:
Yeah, 100%. I think the less you talk, not asking questions, the less you talk about yourself, the more likable you are to the other individuals to keep that in mind when you’re having your next conversation.

Perry Holley:
And just as we start to wrap up, I threw in a couple things just to be careful to avoid. So these are things. You can kill it. We can do it quickly. But number one on the list was humble bragging. What does that even mean?

Chris Goede:
Well, I mean, it wasn’t about me, but let me tell you what we accomplished, right? Like, I have found myself in the past saying, now, this is not a narcissistic statement. And then I say, and I’m like, if I got to say that, then it is this humble bragging, right? Like, if. If you’re going to brag, just brag, right. Versus trying to deflect and then brag.

Perry Holley:
The team did really well after I got them through the door by knowing that people are the top. Yeah. Just give the credit to the team. Name dropping. Name dropping, yeah.

Chris Goede:
This becomes laughter for us at times with people were like, oh, did you just drop, you know, John Maxwell’s name or whatever. Right. Like, whoever it might be. And it just, for me, it discredits sometimes people, especially if it’s not tied to the story and has no relevance.

Perry Holley:
It’s not likable for me, gossiping is probably, obviously, don’t be talking about things you shouldn’t be talking about, but having a closed mind, not being open to others thoughts. Is that what you go with that?

Chris Goede:
I feel like that’s like a brick wall. And I mean, you just run into it. That’s not fun. It’s not likable. And it’s hard for me to connect with people that have a closed mind.

Perry Holley:
This other one says, sharing too much too early about sharing things about you. Private thing, being open too early. Is that the way you read that?

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And you also have on here, and I’ll wrap this up, you have sharing too much on social media. I think both of these could be hand in hand. I just, for me, something goes off, a red flag goes off, and all of a sudden I know you for 30 minutes and I understand and have learned a lot of personal stuff that I probably don’t need to know. Maybe even if we were friends 30 years. Right. You know, and we all know some people that are like this and they’re just so open and that’s how they communicate. But it just, for me, it doesn’t become that.

Chris Goede:
And also, at times, I think that with the social media thing, I know different generations view it differently, but for me, there’s so much that’s shared out there that is not necessarily really how things are being portrayed. And it continues to be the same trend versus what really life looks like. And so for me, I guess it goes back to the authenticity is where when you put these down, it’s interesting. And then we start talking through them. The word that comes to mind to me that, as I kind of close and wrap up with some thoughts is authenticity is a trust accelerating. So I’m attracted, and I like people that are truly authentic and what that looks like. And it’s a true statement, though, because you know this, you’ve been in sales on and off for a long time. We buy from, we do business with those that we like.

Chris Goede:
Someone might have a better product, maybe even a little better price, whatever. But if they’re not likable and I don’t like them, it’s a pain. I’m not doing that. Right. Right. I, and it is the same in that situation as it is increasing your influence and leading your team and being with your family and every part of your life. And so I think there’s enough negativity in this world. And things that we deal with are hard things we deal with that I think we need more people to think about, how do I become likable today to everybody that I encounter? It may be starting as simple as Perry does, walking through the airport smiling, trying to get other people to smile.

Chris Goede:
But when you think about it, there are ways for you to get up every day and think about, how can I add value and be likable to people that I’m gonna connect with?

Perry Holley:
I was going through Home Depot the other day, and I just saw, I said, guy was doing something, trying to lift something, and I offered to help him. And then I asked him a question, and I got out to the car, and after we got our stuff, and my granddaughter says, how’d you know that guy? I go, I didn’t know that guy. Why were you talking to him? Because he’s a human. I mean, I know just being friendly, just being likable, just being a friend, even if I don’t know them to do that. So, yeah, we can do a lot more to drive our relationships. Great stuff. And just a reminder, if you’d like to get the learner guide for this, if you’d like to learn more about our offerings, learn about our other podcast, family of offerings. We have there.

Perry Holley:
You can do all [email protected]. podcast you can leave us a comment or a question. I hope you know that we love hearing from you, and we’re very grateful that you’d spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership executive podcast.

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