Executive Podcast #307: Feedback that Drives Inclusion

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership executive podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. As we get started today, just know that there’s a learner guide that’s been created for you guys. Or if you have a comment and you’d like some type of issue leadership challenge you’re dealing with, we’d love to help you solve that and talk about it on the air. We won’t tell who it came from or any of the details, but that’s what we’re doing. We are literally in the field. A lot of things that we talk about are things that we are dealing with as a team, as a leader, but also those that we have the privilege of serving around the world. So just know you can go to maxwellleadership.com/podcast.

Chris Goede:
You can click on this podcast there. There’s a form. Fill that out, submit it, and we will get back in touch with you. Well, today we’ve talked a lot about both of these words.

Perry Holley:
Yes.

Chris Goede:
What’s interesting is we’re going to talk about them together. Today’s topic is feedback that drives inclusion. Where are we going?

Perry Holley:
Is that a reach?

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Well, maybe, maybe not. Because I think when I was thinking about it, I think the opposite could.

Perry Holley:
Oh, yes, right.

Chris Goede:
So if that’s true, then absolutely the way we go about it can give that inclusive feeling to that team and to the people that are on your team.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I took this from a. So I was doing some reading, and we teach a lot on culture. I was reading the culture code by Daniel Coyle. Excellent. I really recommend that. He referenced some researchers who discovered that one particular type of feedback boosted student effort and performance so immensely that they deemed it magical feedback. So we’re always talking about, okay, I gotta pay attention to this. They said the students who received this magical feedback tended to revise their papers and try new things.

Perry Holley:
Others who did not. But these students improved significantly. And so the feedback was not complicated. It consisted of one simple phrase. And so I found this fascinating, was, here’s the phrase. I’m giving you these comments because I have very high expectations and I know you can reach them.

Chris Goede:
Your thoughts, if you didn’t write that down and you didn’t download the learner guide, as I saw that and Perry gave it to me, ahead of time. I was like, that’s really good, right? Like, you’re setting the bar, but then you’re talking about this belief, and what I loved about it was its positioning of not micromanaging, in essence, the change that you’re requesting or the feedback that you’re giving. Uh, the belief. Word is all over that. Right. We’re gonna talk about that in a little bit. And so, I’m sure the comments ahead of that statement are what the leader saw in the situation. But what you don’t see in.

Chris Goede:
In here is how to prove, right. He’s given the freedom. He or she’s given him the freedom to do that. And so, with this statement, as we’re talking about, of driving inclusion in this statement, before we dive in and we tie those two together, let’s just. Let’s go back. We’ve talked about this before on a couple of other episodes, just so you know what we mean by inclusion. And so, for us, as we think about culture and we think about leadership, what it means to us is that your team members, those that you work with every day, feel welcome, safe, and value. They feel like they belong on that team.

Chris Goede:
They’re comfortable. Think about when you go into a setting or a team, and you feel comfortable, you feel welcome, you feel safe in there, and you feel valued. That’s what we talk about, is how to get to a place of inclusion by driving those key words.

Perry Holley:
And one of those words you use was so instrumental in the research. But that word is belong. That if you feel like you belong here, different from fitting in. Fitting in is me doing what I need to do to please you. Belonging is. I can just be me. But said, the words of feedback are so important that, according to Coyle, the author, that they deliver this burst of belonging cues. And I hadn’t thought about that when he said that there’s actually three separate cues.

Perry Holley:
The first one is that by giving you this feedback. And so, imagine I’m giving you the feedback about something I just witnessed you do, and I’m giving you these words. I’m telling you this because I have high standards, and I believe you can meet them. I thought, okay, that tells me that you’re a part of this group. That was cue number one. You belong. You’re part of the group. The group is special, and we have high standards.

Perry Holley:
We don’t just. We’re not just some willy nilly. We have high standards. We’re doing that. And third, I believe you can reach those standards. And these signals, he said, provide a clear message that light up that unconscious brain that you belong here. It’s a safe place for you to give your all, to put yourself into the work, to do that. And before I get your comments on that, I said, I got a little sad thinking how many times I don’t give feedback.

Perry Holley:
Giving feedback says, I value you and you belong here. And that’s that. Inclusion. Now I can. It just opens up so much. I think all the times I either refused or didn’t give, I was afraid to give feedback or something. I just love this. This ad that he’s put on here to say, man, belonging cue.

Perry Holley:
That’s why I tied it to inclusion. When I saw the word belong, I thought, that’s how we really see inclusion.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I love. And you can open with this statement, and you can close with this statement and bring it back together. And then I was also thinking, if that was me, no matter how tough the feedback was, I’d probably walk out of the room so excited. I’d be like, that was amazing, and really not even know what happened, but really got good, constructive feedback in the process of doing it. So I think it’s brilliant. I think it’s powerful. And I think what you said just a minute ago, for many of us, is not easy to. To give feedback because you feel like even though you need to, um, you may down the other person, they’re going to walk out.

Chris Goede:
Like, you have to give feedback. And by having bookends using the statement or one on the other, no doubt we all want to be a part of a high performing team. I know I do. And so, man, I want to. I want to follow a leader who has high expectations, and then I want to follow a leader that believes in me. And so when you’re sitting there saying that, I’m like, man, I don’t. Whatever he or she would have told me, I would have walked out of there, been like, let’s go. Like, yes, I’m the best team member ever, right? And meanwhile, I just got really good feedback.

Chris Goede:
Um, so I absolutely love that. It does also remind me, just as we’ve based every part of this podcast that we do together, Perry and I are so passionate about the five levels of leadership. You know, that goes directly into the level three, where, as a leader, we have to produce results. As an individual contributor, we have to produce results at level three. And when you do that, you’re gaining influence because of that. The only way to really go about that is to have the ability to give each other good feedback and not ruin the relationship. The connection, the trust you’ve built, which is level two. And so remember five levels, leadership.

Chris Goede:
These build on top of one another, and you can’t leave the other one behind. So you’re always flowing back and forth. And unless you do this right, unless you do feedback right so that it feels inclusive to the individual, you’re going to lose that level two influence, which is about the relationships and the trust. And so, um, 100%, I love this. I love at level three, we talk about momentum, and. And I think that’s when you get momentum and positive, uh, results is when you start giving each other feedback in the right way that you don’t shut each other down.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I think this is a level three statement. As I’m. I’m looking at your performance, I’m giving you feedback, and, uh, whatever I tell you, I then, you know, communicate that. I’m giving you the comments because I have high expectations of you and I know that you can reach them. So if we can break it down to say, the first part of that is, I thought was, I have high expectations. I started thinking, how can. If I said this, are people going to roll their eyes? Are you the kind of leader that has high expectations? And do you communicate it? I hate to use those words. Somebody roll their eyes and say, yeah, right.

Perry Holley:
You don’t do that. But how does. I mean, this may sound like a silly question, but I think we all think we have high expectations. How do you set and communicate high expectations?

Chris Goede:
I understand where you’re coming from. Right. You don’t want to come across as this narcissistic leader, but you do want to set that bar. You do, like all of us want to know that what we’re doing is some of our best work. And so a couple things here. In regards. To be able to do that, I think we need to make sure that we are very articulate in what our expectations are like, what are the goals that then, if we hit is considered high performance or would meet our expectations of that project. Right.

Chris Goede:
And so I think we have to be very clear on the front end of how we’re communicating that feedback, what our expectations are. If we’re going to say I have high expectations, if you say you have high expectations and the team doesn’t know what they are, that’s just a complete train wreck.

Perry Holley:
Is it a my expectations around the numbers we’re trying to achieve? Is it expectations in timing of deliverables?

Chris Goede:
Yeah. I think that people struggle with this because it is more about how you deliver it. I think all of that is, yes. When you sit down and you know what your expectations are of a project, as a leader or as an individual contributor, then 100%, I think it’s not only what you communicate, but how you communicate the feedback to that individual.

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Perry Holley:
I think a couple of football coaches I’ve thought about, but having a standard of operation, a standard operating procedure, standards how we do things here. Yes, I expect you to operate. Is it a culture statement? Perhaps? I don’t probably all of that again, but I’m thinking this. These are easy words to say. I have high expectations and I expect you to meet them. How do, how do they know you have high expectations? Is it from standard of performance? Is it? And I think you’re right. A lot of leaders struggle with this. Is that how do I have them? And then how do I communicate them?

Chris Goede:
Yeah, we do have them. We do need to communicate them well tied to the goals. I also think that you have to have regular dialogue and open dialogue. Open communication, meaning as a leader or even as a team member going through, if you have high expectations and you’re working and leading in a project or your volunteer, whatever it might be, remember, leadership is influence. So as you’re, as you’re influencing, as you’re leading people, if you’re not approachable and you’re not invested in, like, for example, if I wasn’t invested in your success, I might have high expectations. But if I wasn’t approachable and then invest it in your success, I don’t think it really matters what my expectations are. You’re probably not ever going to get there. So you got to be able to clearly communicate that on the front end so you’re on the same page.

Chris Goede:
But then even more importantly, throughout the process, if we’re talking about expectations of a project that I think you got to be approachable, and they have to know that you’re invested in them being successful in what they’re doing to meet the team’s goal. But when you talk about kind of the standard, no doubt when you. Same thing I was thinking about with coaching and teams and programs that are very well known for a standard that they live by. And in those, those expectations are extremely high. Whatever they are, whether they’re task related, whether it’s about the attitude of which you go about doing things, how you go about doing things, all of that matters. And you need to be able to communicate that to your, your team members, to individuals when you do that. Here’s. I wrote this down.

Chris Goede:
It’s so important to be able to do this because I think it drives consistency throughout the organization. It drives efficiency. Again, these are all going back to level three things that we look for in leaders that are gaining level three influence. And then I think the quality of what you deliver. Right. You think about the great basketball coach John Wooden. We talk. I mean, go, you name it.

Chris Goede:
They had a standard and it came with feedback. But he made the entire team feel inclusive in how he gave that feedback because he believed in them. So I know you started off this podcast going, do we really? Can we put those two words together? I think it’s. I think it’s brilliant. I think it. And that statement triggered you, which I’m now going to use that statement going forward because I think it’s awesome.

Perry Holley:
Well, let’s go take the very last part of that says that. Go back to the 19 word statement was, I’m giving you these comments because I have very high expectations and I know you can reach them. I’m fascinated with the I know you can reach them statement. To me, this says, similar to what you were just saying about that you’re invested in me, that you believe in me. I see the potential in you. How important is this? And how does a leader have everyone on the team feeling? They have potential and that. I have high expectations, but I believe you can reach them. He said, I’m saying that to everyone.

Perry Holley:
Do you have that high expectation of everyone? How do you communicate that? I believe in you.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. And for those that are listening, not on YouTube, we were like, holding up air quotes like, I believe in you. So you’ve probably heard us say this before. There’s a belief deficit in our world right now with people, and it’s whether it’s personal or professional, whatever it is. And so there has to be some of that. But I think what Perry brings up here is a good point.

Chris Goede:
It’s not like you just going, I believe in you, and then walking out of the room, right, like that. That’s not part of it. It’s part of it, but that’s not how you go about doing it. One of the ways to go about it, two things you can do. Number one is empower the individuals when. When you empower them, which, going back to this statement in here, it doesn’t really say how to fix it. It’s like they give you feedback on what they observe. The leader and, man, I have high expectations.

Chris Goede:
I believe in you. I know, I know you’re going to hit that when you do that. The empowerment of letting them do that is going to drive ownership of whatever it is. That feedback, the project, whatever. When they have ownership and you succeed as a team, you produce whatever your KPI is in the situation, they’re going to build confidence and then it becomes a cycle that just continues to grow. That’s one way that you can show you believe in them. The other thing is, is that when you begin doing that, I think you also encourage a growth mindset in them, because the way that you’re communicating, the way that you’re making them feel included into the process to meet those high expectations, I think it’s going to challenge them to continue to want to grow, to have the right mindset to want to get better. Because I know if someone came in and said that to me and gave me my feedback, what I would do is I’d reflect and evaluate on that feedback, but then I’d go, okay, well, how do I get better in that area, right? Like, what am I going to do to grow? I mean, I just left and Perry told me, man, I have high expectations, but I know you can get there.

Chris Goede:
Well, now, I don’t want that Perry down and. And yet you were speaking belief into me. But in turn, what’s happening is I’m believing in you as a leader and now gonna do whatever I need to do to grow to make sure that I fix the. The issues that the feedback was coming from.

Perry Holley:
Right. Well, I think heard John say it. I believe in my whole life is that people will rise or lower themselves to your level of expectation about them. And so if you see people in a positive way, they will, you know, you can tell when people feel that way. And I’m just thinking about, you know, how you treat me in our relationship and how we build things together is that I think you have high expectations, but I know that you know I can meet them. And you communicate that when I come in, even with scripts, something like this, I don’t want to disappoint. I’m trying to raise my game because of the way that we’ve communicated to do that. Last thing I’ll say, and I want you to wrap up, is, this is a great sentence.

Perry Holley:
I’m giving you these comments because I have high expectations and I know you can reach them. I would not want to start saying that. There’s a lot of work. As I’ve dug into this. There’s some work that has to be done by the leader. Make sure you do have high expectations. Make sure you’re communicating high expectations, and make sure people know that you believe in them enough that they can reach it. If you haven’t done any of those, this is just a sentence.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Especially. That’s so good. Especially the last one. Because what do we see when we go into organizations with that have high turnover? Is we see leaders that come in and go straight from level one to level three. And what you’re telling us is. So is that because could you imagine if. If first day on the job, right.

Chris Goede:
I haven’t. I mean, you know, I’m level one. I got a title right here, and I go, Perry, I got high expectations and I believe in you. And you’re like, you don’t even know. You don’t even know me. And like, great. Thanks for telling me. Right.

Chris Goede:
So to your point, the work’s got to be done at level two to get to level three and then be able to say that for the credibility of it. So I love that you said that. Well, as I wrap up, I just want to encourage you. It’s not easy for all of us, but people want desire, I think crave, I think need feedback. I would say it starts as our children need that all the way up to. As a parent, I need that to. Our team members need that to. I know my mom and dad don’t listen to this, but they need that right now, right? Maybe now more than ever.

Chris Goede:
But it is something that we all need. We crave, will make us better. And we often have this negative connotation of, I gotta give Perry some feedback because of the way it’s been done in the past. What I love about what you brought to us today is if to your point, I want to underscore this. If you go about going through the levels of influence the right way, you can make a statement like this and you don’t lose influence or lose credibility with the team by going backwards because you come in and make a statement. We have high expectations here, and I believe that you can get there. You can fix that, whatever it might be. And so it’s not negative the way you go about it.

Chris Goede:
It would be negative to your point a minute ago, which is if I see it and I really care about you and I really wanted you to be a part of the team and you felt safe and valued, and I didn’t share it with you. That’s, that’s the negative part of that. But for so long, that word feedback comes with such negative connotation. Don’t allow that to be the story. Go about increasing your influence the right way first, and then use a statement like this and you’ll be in good shape.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. People crave belonging as well. And you’ll make me feel like I am a part of this team and I’m important to our success. I belong here. Great stuff, Chris. Thank you. And as a reminder, if you want to know more about our offerings, about the other podcast episodes in our arsenal, if you want to leave a question or a comment, you can do all that at maxwellleadership.com/podcast we love hearing from you.

Perry Holley:
We’re very grateful you’d spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership executive podcast.

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