Executive Podcast #321: Culture Matters with Jenni Catron (Part 2)

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. I’m going to start by just saying if you missed last week’s episode, Amen. I want you to listen to this one first because then you might forget to come back to this one. But I want to remind you, go back and listen to it, because we just had an incredible conversation about culture and so much so that we said we’re going to do it again and we’re going to talk a little bit further about the depths of culture and a book that I’ll introduce you to in just a minute. If you want to learn more about the five levels of leadership or any of the training, consulting, coaching content that we’re doing with organizations around the world, that really drives our conversations because we bring what’s going on out there, we’ll bring topics in here. And if you’re like us, if someone else is dealing with it or struggling with it, then you probably are as well. And hopefully that’s been adding value to you.

Chris Goede:
If you’ll go to MaxwellLeadership.com/podcast, if you’ll click on this podcast, you can submit a form and one of our team will follow back up with some additional details on how to get in touch with us. Well, today’s topic is titled part two. Okay, go listen to part one, culture matters with Jenny Catron. And we spent about 25 minutes a minute ago just unpacking high level about this book and why it is so important. And my first question for Jenny out of the shoot today is, man, why do we have to have an intentional approach for culture? Right. That’s. We were just having a little bit of a side conversation a minute ago about how we need to make sure that we’re doing that. But this book right here is in partnership with Maxwell Leadership.

Chris Goede:
Super excited to partner with Jenny on this. And this comes out February 11th.

Jenni Catron:
That’s right.

Chris Goede:
And it’s an incredible book, incredible content, lots of stories, and it’s coming right from leading teams in corporate America. So welcome and thank you for staying with us again and helping Perry, you know, fill another episode because we’re at over 300 and sometimes he needs some help. But I don’t know if you know.

Perry Holley:
This, but she’s in it. Well, you’re in the 280s.

Chris Goede:
I saw that.

Jenni Catron:
Yeah, yeah, I am. It’s amazing. Like, how did we get that many?

Chris Goede:
That’s what we say all the time. Perry’s like, I’ll tell you how we got that, right? We ask everybody. So Barry’s, you know, after our intro last time, Perry’s like, yeah, we’re just going to have Jenny stay for us. But we’re super excited. Let me come back to this culture thing, right? And why is it so important to make sure you have an intentional approach in designing your culture?

Jenni Catron:
Sure, sure. You know, I think that’s the thing that sneaks up on a lot of leaders is, you know, we love people.

Chris Goede:
Hopefully not everybody. I’ve worked for some leaders that I don’t think love people.

Jenni Catron:
But generally, you know, if you get to a position of leadership over time, you eventually realize, I either need to really love leading people or I don’t need to be in this job. Sometimes we expect just that relational side of things or just our heart and intention as leaders will show up and produce a great culture. And the problem with culture is that culture is an outcome, right? Culture is an outcome of everything we’ve put into the system up to this point. And if you ask most leaders, the culture they have is not necessarily the culture they want, but a lot of times we don’t know how to reverse engineer that. And so that was basically what I’ve put my mind to over the last 20 years is saying, how do you create a system for culture that isn’t absent the heart? Right? Because I think that’s. When you hear system, then you think, oh, it’s heartless or it doesn’t, you know, it lacks that relational component. When in actuality, systems serve people, really can serve people really, really well. Right.

Jenni Catron:
And so because culture is an outcome we have to be really intentional about, what are we. What are we doing day in and day out? What’s the. What’s the operating system that produces the outcome we want? And so that’s the. That’s the conviction for me was I was like, there’s gotta be. And the backstory for me is I started in strategic planning. Like, I am a strategic planning girl. Like, give me a goal and I will build a plan and we will make it happen. Like, that is how I’m wired.

Jenni Catron:
And then as I threw some, really, some bumps and bruises in my own leadership journey, I literally, you guys had a leader. Tell me, Jenny, if you. You want to work with people, you’re going to have to learn to love them, to lead them, because I was bulldozing them. Right. I was like that ambitious, driven, like, make it happen person in me. So the irony is that my passion point now is leadership and culture. That’s the irony of the story.

Chris Goede:
It really is. With a framework, though, of a structure. I love that you build a framework. It’s like you took somebody wired like yourself to be able to say, okay, here’s how I got there.

Jenni Catron:
That’s right.

Chris Goede:
The culture of the people. I think it’s brilliant to be able to come from you because most of the time we talk about culture, it’s like, what’s it feel like to work there? What’s it feel like to be around your leader? And it’s that level two that we talk about in the five levels of leadership. It’s that connection, the relational thing that’s driving the culture. And you’re saying, yes, you gotta love the people. But look, here’s the way to build a system around doing it.

Perry Holley:
So I got a coaching call recently. I said, dude, you gotta love your people. He goes, love them? I don’t even like them. I think of love as an action, not a feeling.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, that’s right.

Jenni Catron:
That’s so good.

Perry Holley:
So one thing I really loved, many things in the book just really spoke to me because we teach so much on culture. But I wanted to spend today on this episode on some of the skills, leader skills that I thought are so important. And I noticed you had a John Maxwell quote early in the book. He’s sprinkled throughout. I know he’s had an influence on your life. He said the single biggest way to impact an organization is focused on leadership development. There’s almost no limit to the potential of an organization that recruits good people, raises them as leaders and continually develops them. And I said, obviously we are like minded about personal development, but I love how you kind of tied personal development to the importance of culture.

Perry Holley:
And it really can’t. You had this great idea about culture, but you’re not personally developing yourself and your team. It’s going to not work. Right, but give me your feeling about linking those two.

Jenni Catron:
Yeah. You know, I think one of the things I observed as I was, you know, just working, like actively was just working with teams and trying to figure out how to do this well. And then as I’ve now moved on to the consulting side of it, where I’m helping organizations look at their culture, what I repeatedly find one of the biggest inhibitors when I’m working with a team where the Culture is not in a healthy place is typically their people managers. So one of the things I’ve observed as both when I was practically as a practitioner in organizations and then now working with organizations of all kinds, is that every time we dig into a culture that is not so healthy, we find repeatedly that a part of the problem, not all of the problem, but a big part of the problem is the people management, the people managers in the organization. I think we mentioned this in the last episode, but we talked about, you know, when you’re at the top of the organization or your senior team, and even like that next level, you kind of get it, you catch it, you understand culture. But the deeper you go into the organization, it just gets more diluted. And one thing that I’ve found really fascinating in some research that I’m looking at in just workplace dynamics right now is how much pressure is on, like the mid level manager that the expectation of employees. Employees have a lot more distrust of senior leadership maybe than they have historically.

Jenni Catron:
So there’s more distrust of senior leadership. So they have more expectation of their direct manager. Well, again, over the past handful of years, a lot of people got promoted into people management because they were still the person there. And, you know, and so it’s like, hey, you’re really good at this. Let’s throw you into this job now. You manage the whole team. They have not been trained or equipped to actually manage the whole team. And y’all are nodding.

Jenni Catron:
We all know this. My pain point in my leadership journey was that just because I was great at the functional role did not make me great as a people manager.

Perry Holley:
Well, John said you were a soloist, now you’re the conductor. Go conduct. I don’t know how to conduct. I know how to solo.

Jenni Catron:
These are whole new skills. And so that’s why part of the framework. We have five phases in the framework, and the fourth phase is equipping. And it’s equipping our leaders to actually lead culture. Because if our leaders at every level are not well equipped to lead culture, you’re kind of dead on arrival, right? Like, I mean, they’re the ones that employees are interacting with day in and day out. And so that was the aha for me as I was even building this out, because I was wrestling with the. I’m so passionate about leadership, so passionate about culture, but they. They go hand in hand.

Jenni Catron:
You can’t. You can’t take them apart from each other. And so. So the equipping the leaders, I think is a really key piece.

Chris Goede:
What I love about it is. You’re talking about the framework. And now we’re going to talk about. Even in the book, you have eight critical skills.

Jenni Catron:
Sure.

Chris Goede:
Right in the book. And so you’re making it very practical for people to almost. To build out with intentionality. What do we want this culture to look like? And so we’re gonna dive in and we kind of just go back and forth. We’re gonna list. We’ll give you a little preview of the book. We’re gonna list the eight skills that Jenny has in the book, have you give us a little bit of feedback on them and move on. So the first two are self leadership, which you’ve mentioned a little bit, not only in this episode, but in last week’s, and then also what we call EQ in our world, the emotional intelligence side.

Chris Goede:
Share the importance of those two and establishing a winning culture inside an organization.

Jenni Catron:
Sure. Well, self leadership is a personal conviction for me. And just.

Perry Holley:
Amen. Yeah, amen.

Jenni Catron:
I mentioned this last week, but it’s like you have to lead yourself well to lead others better. You have to be intentional of how am I leading me. And a component of that is self awareness, which is one of the components of EQ as well, is am I aware of how I’m showing up as a leader? Am I aware of what motivates me as a leader? Am I aware of how people experience me as a leader? Like, silly example, but we’ve all probably had this, you know, in the Catron house, it’s not what we say to one another, it’s how we say it. Right. I mean, that never happens. Right.

Perry Holley:
It must be only at her house.

Chris Goede:
I was saying, like, I’ve never heard that before. Yeah.

Jenni Catron:
Same thing happens in organizational life that as leaders, we’ve got to understand how are our team experiencing us when we’re under pressure or that big deadline is looming, or we’re distracted by something else, or what are they unintentionally experiencing from us? So that self leadership piece is both the self awareness component, but it’s also that how am I learning, growing, developing, so that I’m equipped to continue to lead? Well, then the emotional intelligence piece is the understanding of others. The self awareness is part of it.

Chris Goede:
Sure, it’s part of it.

Jenni Catron:
It’s part of it. But then it’s the. Do I understand how you experience me? Do I understand how you feel when you’re around me? Right. Do I understand what’s important to you? Am I cued into, you know, how that employee is showing up today and what’s going on with them? Am I paying attention to. Gosh, there must be something a little bit off.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, yeah.

Jenni Catron:
That I don’t need to just go blazing in with my agenda today. I actually need to be conscious of what this employee is, is. So it’s the loving others piece, which we don’t always love that word in leadership, but it begins with that understanding of how do I see people as humans and want to connect with them in a way that ultimately helps bring the best out of them, but engages with them in a way that we can work together in a healthy way.

Chris Goede:
I think that awareness is so important is that people are like, well I’m just going to show up at work differently than I show up at home. And we’re like, no. Right. How you’re led at work shows up at home and then how you’re led or you lead at home shows up at work and it matters. And so you gotta have that others awareness.

Perry Holley:
I love that the third skill was communication and I think it’s probably the most important aspect of leading. If you can’t lead yourself and you’re not aware of your eq, your emotional intelligence, how you communicate is not gonna really matter. So but tell me about communication as a. The skill number three skill.

Jenni Catron:
Yeah, I’m not even sure that I put them necessarily in order.

Chris Goede:
I was going to ask that.

Jenni Catron:
I was going to ask that.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jenni Catron:
But there might have subconsciously been a little bit of an order to these, right?

Perry Holley:
Yeah, well after the first two, had to be the first two, I thought the rest of them don’t really matter. But after the first two, if you don’t lead yourself.

Jenni Catron:
That’s a great observation because you’re right, if you’re not leading yourself. Well, if you’re not aware of self aware and others aware, then your communication again I mentioned this in the last episode, but communication is an act of respect to co workers. Like that is the conviction for me on communication. And again, most of the organizations I’m working with when we’re unpacking, what are the things that are inhibiting their culture? Communication is top of the list. And I’m sure you guys see this in the work you’re doing, right? Communication, it’s always the top of the list.

Chris Goede:
By the way, I tell people, not only that, I say I work for the number one leadership expert in the world. And we have that issue here too, right? Like, I mean it is an issue.

Jenni Catron:
Yeah. And part of that, I wonder is the pace of our world is so much more the mechanisms for Communication are more than ever. And so there’s some. There’s a value of, like, understanding the value of communication, the respect for one another, making sure the right people are in the right information. But then there’s even the systems, the tools that we’re using for communication, because there are so many tools, you know, that we can use day to day, whether it’s email or cell phones, text messages, Slack messages, you know, the management tools. I mean, there’s so many different. And every once in a while, I will kind of pause with our team and go, okay, wait. We need to be reminded of what tools we use for what.

Jenni Catron:
So even on the communication side, it’s both the what do I believe about it and why it matters and valuing others in being intentional with it. But then it’s like, we’ve got to have even some processes or systems around what we even use to communicate because there’s so much coming at us that a lot more gets lost. I heard from a marketing person the other day. You know, it used to be the rule of seven that you had to hear something seven times in order for it to stick. And a marketing person told me today.

Chris Goede:
It’S like, I can’t imagine 27, which.

Jenni Catron:
I still think is, like, generous, right? Like, but 27 times before there’s even a chance that you’ve really heard it. And I was like, holy cow. Like, that’s so communication, to me, I think, is more challenging than ever.

Perry Holley:
Well, I think it’s just hearing you talk and thinking about when cultures don’t work. Communication is always culprit. It’s always, they’re guilty of some. The way you communicate in your organization determines how people see and feel things. If you’re not, I feel left out. And then you’re going to hurt your culture. You never tell me anything. You’re holding back culture killers all the way around.

Perry Holley:
I agree.

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Jenni Catron:
For sure.

Chris Goede:
So those are the first three. The next two on the list are decision making and delegating. Talk to us a little bit about either how those two skills can help or hurt. Sometimes we go the opposite side. We’re like, well, here’s what it looks like if it’s really, really bad. So you can choose to go hurt if you want or help the culture that they hope to have around these two skills.

Jenni Catron:
Yeah, the decision making piece. Well, decision making and delegating, both of these are so critical. They’re all critical, right? This is just part of the growth as leaders. But the decision making piece, if we don’t have a clear process for how we make decisions, employees are always left questioning what we do and how we do it. So one of the convictions I hold is that clarity is a chief indicator of the health of a culture. And this is a number of levels. The more clarity an employee has, the more confidently they’ll contribute. And so in decision making, we as leaders make a lot of decisions very intuitively.

Jenni Catron:
And it’s based on our experience. It’s based on just some of our, you know, might be our gut, might be some process that we have, but we haven’t articulated. And so the decision making one is making sure the team knows this is how decisions are made. And there’s various tools you can use for that. I’m sure Maxwell has some great tools for decision making as well. But having a process for decision making helps give people confidence in this is what you can expect. Right? Because if it’s kind of a guessing game of how decisions get made, then what you get is apathy, right? Like, if I’m not sure what’s going to happen or how. How it’s going to happen, then I’m just going to hold back and wait till it happens.

Jenni Catron:
But if I understand this is how decisions. I have a client right now that nobody knows in the organization how they can pitch for a new team member. Like, if they have a hiring decision that needs to be made, they. They have no idea how that gets made. It’s like this black box that it’s like I might tell somebody somewhere and maybe it’ll happen, maybe it won’t. I have no idea how decisions get made, how the financing gets discussed. Like, it’s like this black hole in their organization. And so I think process and clarity around that is huge.

Jenni Catron:
The delegation one, this one to me is, here’s what I found for myself. I Have a tendency to hire somebody who I think is a rock star. And you got this, Chris. Go make it happen. I believe in you. You’re going to be amazing. Like, there you go. And you go, you run.

Jenni Catron:
You’re a great leader. You’ve got great instincts. You go do it. And then all of a sudden I’m like, oh, but wait, that wasn’t actually aligned with our strategy or, or our values or like there’s something out of alignment because I didn’t delegate, I abdicated. I just like, was like, whew, you got it, okay. And a lot of leaders, it’s like we fill a position and we’re like, oh, okay, now go over to this fire. And so there’s like, you know, there’s a continuum in there that as leaders, we’ve got to recognize what does somebody need from me to be equipped well, to fulfill the responsibility. And so being conscious of that, that making sure we’re actually delegating and we’re delegating in a way I love, this is going old school, but I love Ken Blanchard’s situational leadership model.

Jenni Catron:
You know, like going way back, I like, pull that tool all the time to say, what is it where this employee is? Their level of experience, their level of time in the role, what do they need to succeed? So again, that goes back to our emotional intelligence as a leader, coupled with understanding the competency of the team member and going, how do I serve them best for them to succeed? And delegation might look different for different team members, different people.

Perry Holley:
The next two I can really see being culture killers if not done properly. But accountability and feedback, we talk a lot about this in our work, and people don’t know how to or what accountability means. They are not comfortable giving feedback or they think feedback is telling people how great they’re doing. I said, that’s encouragement. Let’s work on feedback. What are your thoughts on these two?

Jenni Catron:
I think you’re exactly right. I think these are kind of those silent killers of culture and that if we don’t have good practices and behaviors around this, we might create apathy, we might create some quiet quitting or some disengagement. What I’m finding really fascinating about some of the studies around Gen Z is how much they value feedback because they’ve been grown, they grew up in a feedback world. I mean, you post something on social media and you immediately know if somebody likes it, right? We could argue whether that’s right or wrong, but the reality is they’re used to high degrees of feedback. And so We’ve got to figure out as leaders, do we have good. And this goes back to that employee journey grid that I referenced, I think in last week’s episode that having a process for at every stage of an employee’s journey, do we have mechanisms that reinforce the things that are really critical to the health of our culture? And accountability and feedback is part of that. Accountability is we’re very clear on, here’s the role, here’s the responsibility, here’s your goals and what are our mechanisms for checking in on that. So again, are our people, managers well equipped to know how to have those conversations regularly? Because that’s the key for both the accountability and the feedback is that we’re in regular conversation.

Jenni Catron:
It’s not just showing up at the annual performance review. It’s in my regular conversations, hey, tell me how you’re doing on that goal of, you know, we need 20 people in that cohort. Tell me how you’re doing on that goal. And we’re having a good two way discussion about it. That’s me holding that employee accountable because their goal was they needed 20 people in that cohort. And then if they tell me how they’re doing, then I might say, okay, let me give you, can I give you some feedback on that? You know, the way you did that maybe if you did this, hey, great job, we’re already at 10 and you know, you’re halfway there. So it’s both and it’s making sure we need to not be afraid of those conversations. And the more we’re equipped as leaders and we’re connecting with our team members regularly, these conversations are just more natural.

Jenni Catron:
They’re not the like, oh, I got to pull them into my office and have the hard conversation. It’s like, no, both of these should be regular habits in the rhythms of organization.

Perry Holley:
If you’ve done a good job on core value development, these are core values that I value you so much as whatever that I’m going to tell you how you can improve. I’m going to hold you accountable. Not because I’m being mean. I think many of the people we talk to, especially in coaching, they think that this is going to be cause conflict or they’re not gonna like me or it’s gonna cause. No, you’re actually giving them a gift by holding them accountable. But it’s gotta be in alignment with those core values that you’ve set up. That’s why they’re culture builders. If you’re having these skills is why you have them here is because you do these Right.

Perry Holley:
People can see that you believe what you say, what your core values say. We do that.

Jenni Catron:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
I love that we put those.

Chris Goede:
The final one is of the eight, this is something that John’s talking a lot about right now, is one of the number one attributes that he’s looking for in leaders, which is ownership. And unpack this a little bit and why this is so important for a winning culture.

Jenni Catron:
Yeah, yeah. This one’s a high value for me. Like, I noticed this recently when I was working with my team and I just noticed a little bit of a lack of ownership on a project and I thought, huh, well, as a new team, new team member probably wasn’t as familiar with my high value of ownership. And clearly I hadn’t employed my process as clearly as one I think I would. But it is like high performing teams, like fully engaged teams all have a high degree of ownership and commitment to the mission. So here’s a distinctive around all of this work is that my definition of culture in the book is who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission. And the achieve our mission is really important because that’s the goal. Right.

Jenni Catron:
We’re not a team. We’re a team on a mission. We’re not just a social club or here for Kumbaya. We are here to actually achieve something meaningful together. And every person on your team wants to do that?

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Jenni Catron:
Every person wants to come to a job where they feel like they’re doing something that matters, that has significance. We know that Data recently is saying purpose is a core motivator for people in their work. So we want everybody having that high level of ownership. Well, we have to create the climate for that because ownership, it’s a bit of an attitude more than a skill, in my opinion. It’s harder to train somebody to have ownership. Now, y’all could argue with me on this. And so I think I’m always, I’m always looking to recruit for that, who is highly committed. Now I can create a culture that either pulls that out of them or they disengage.

Jenni Catron:
But they’re disengaging and they’re on their way out. Right. So the more that we set a culture that has a lot of clarity around who we are and how we work together, the clearer I am on that, the more confidently team members can engage and the higher their ownership level goes, in my opinion.

Chris Goede:
That’s good.

Perry Holley:
No, I think so. Going back to accountability and feedback says I expect you to own by being accountable. You’re Saying you own that.

Jenni Catron:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
And so I’m gonna give you feedback about how I see that. And I think my ownership has got almost like a mindset. Would you say it was a sure attitude. Attitude. A mindset that says I’m either gonna be an owner or a hired hand. In my mind, I show up as either a hired hand waiting for you to tell me, go do that, go do this, or I show up as an owner thing. If I were you, this is what I’d do. And I love that attitude mindset that says, yeah, I’m gonna be an owner in this.

Perry Holley:
And the culture has really got to support that.

Jenni Catron:
That’s right. I was gonna say the leader has to ensure that you’re not sabotaging that.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I want you to own it, but I’m gonna m. Exactly.

Jenni Catron:
Exactly Right. And how often do we do that, even unintentionally? So I think we have to be really mindful. It goes back to our self leadership and emotional intelligence. How mindful am I of what I unintentionally communicate, especially around ownership, like if I’m really letting people thrive.

Chris Goede:
Well, again, another great conversation and last week’s episode. And this week is just the surface of what’s in this incredible book, Culture Matters, coming out in February of 2025 in partnership with Jenny and Maxwell Leadership Publishing. So make sure you do that. Where is the best place for them to learn more about that book?

Jenni Catron:
For sure. CultureMattersBook.com is the URL. You can go get info about pre ordering the book, get a bunch of early bonus material, including three chapters of the book, a workbook, a masterclass, all kinds of fun stuff. But culturemattersbook.com love it.

Chris Goede:
Another area that we’re directly aligned, adding value. Just John is always about, I’m gonna give you more value than it’s worth. And so I love that here. As I wrap up, here’s. Here’s what I wrote down. These eight critical skills are important as you’re designing a team culture to align with the organization culture, whatever it might be. But if you’re going back to leading yourself, first I wanna challenge you to write the eight down. And then I want you to assess yourself on the eight.

Jenni Catron:
Oh, that’s good.

Chris Goede:
And then assess the organization on the 8. Maybe it’s a scale, 1 to 5, 1 to 10, I don’t know. Whatever it is. And then if you really feel a little crazy, ask your team to then assess you on those eight and the organization on the eight. In essence, what you’re doing is creating your own quick little culture assessment. Then there’s going to be a gap, there’s going to be a deviation between some numbers and that’s where the work begins. And wherever those gaps are, there’s going to be content in here. It’s going to give you ideas, frameworks, which I love.

Chris Goede:
Skill sets are going to be able to help you. And so that’s your takeaway. Figure out where are we to find reality and where do you want to go and then how do you go about doing it.

Perry Holley:
Fantastic. Well, thank you Jenny. Really appreciate you being here. Great conversation. There’s a reminder if you’d like to know more about the book or connect with Jenny in any way, you can do [email protected] she’s got some nice bonus materials for you there. I hope you’ll take advantage of that. Also, if you’d like to know more about what we offer and the five levels of leadership, our other podcast, or leave us a comment or a question, you can do that at Maxwell Leadership. We always love hearing from you. Very grateful you spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

High Road Leadership Book:
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