Executive Podcast #322: Gen Z – Conscious Unbossing

Chris Goede:
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Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive Vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining us. Once again, I want to encourage you, if you’re consuming this content, share it with somebody, share it with your team, share it with a peer, share with a family member. Perry and I were just talking before we started recording about. I mean, it’s awesome. Some of the stories we hear about people all over the world that are using this content to help develop not only themselves but their team. And so we want to encourage you to do that as well.

Perry Holley:
Who knew that we had friends in Bulgaria?

Chris Goede:
Unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. It’s awesome. And so continue to do that. We’re thankful for that. If you would like to leave a comment or a question or something you’d like for us to address or if you want to learn more about. I’m just going to say it right here, Perry being your coach, because actually this is something we had a conversation with. We do a lot of coaching with executives around the world and we had somebody say, I’m not getting coaching unless it’s Perry.

Chris Goede:
I don’t know what that means about me, but I am grateful to have Perry on our team and leading our facilitators and our coaches. But if that’s something you’re like, man, I need that help. I’d love to have somebody to walk along that journey with us. Go to Maxwellleadership.com/podcast click on this podcast. There’ll be a form there. If you’ll put your information on there and submit it, we’ll follow back up with you. And actually, for the next couple of episodes, yes, we’re going to dive into.

Perry Holley:
A big topic lately.

Chris Goede:
A big topic. You know what else made me think about is you had the privilege just recently to spend an intensive day with Tim Elmore.

Perry Holley:
I did.

Chris Goede:
And just really unpacking and talking about different generations. And so I’m not going to call you our generational expert because we do have the privilege of having Tim on our team. But I’m going to call you the second one. I’m going to call you the co pilot because you spent a lot of time researching and learning about.

Perry Holley:
He has such a heart for this younger generation. And that was such a privilege to be. To spend that time with him and to hear his heart for that. He’s got a new book coming out in 2025, specifically on Gen Z and what he’s learning. And I just think that he believes, as I do, that this is a generation that has a lot to give. But we’ve kind of pigeonholed them a little bit and see them in a way that’s not as positive. I really want to get to the bottom of how we add value to them and really receive the value they have for us.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I love it. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to take you on a journey of what Perry got to learn from Tim directly. And then I’m not going to spoil it right now, but in a couple weeks, we have some exciting news to tell you around Tim and generations that I think you’ll be interested in hearing. Well, today’s topic is titled Gen Z and Conscious Unbossing.

Perry Holley:
Get that one.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Look, those that have been longtime listeners, you know, Perry throws these titles in there, just. Yeah. Is Chris going to be able to say these two words back to back? You know, first we’ve had the. The great resignation. We’re all very familiar with that term, you know, coming out of after Covid. Then it was the quiet quitting the bare minimum Monday. All these catchphrases that we’ve had with different kind of seasons that we as we’ve gone through.

Chris Goede:
Now we’re talking about the conscious unbossing. And that is according to a new survey and you’re bringing to us is that these Gen Z admit to not wanting to advance into management or leadership.

Perry Holley:
Roles, consciously not wanting to be the.

Chris Goede:
Boss, consciously making a decision. And I Think this happens in different generations, but I think this is really happening here from what we’re going to learn today. Even my brother who is younger than me, he’s not a Gen Z, but he is very conscious about I never want to lead a team before and so it’s now becoming more and more and the people that are in our organization by the many right. Are doing this which could lead to a leadership problem down the road.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. Some of the studies saying that 52% of Gen Z professionals don’t want to be, don’t want to ever go into middle management. 72% would choose an individual route to progression over managing others. 72% would rather just be an individual. 69% of Gen Z say middle management is too high stress, low reward. They would opt for a flat structure over the traditional hierarchical structure that we have. Yet employers, 89% of employers still think that middle managers play a critical role in their organization. So Gen Z is eager for growth but prefers not to pursue this traditional management roles that we’ve seen.

Perry Holley:
And it has a lot to do with why would I want to put myself through that situation. So I have a few thoughts on that. But what.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, think about that, that last stat about the employers still think middle management. Like that’s what I was talking about. There’s going to be a gap down the road if we’re not aware of this and what it looks like and. Well, here’s a question, right? So Tim has told us that this generation had more propensity for leadership than the previous generation. So is this telling us that they don’t really want to be in leadership?

Perry Holley:
I’ve got a couple ideas here, but I think that they’re prioritizing development of their personal and professional skills over that of being in. Oh, I could see that team management, they, they really prefer advancing their careers and on their own individual expertise. So they want to be the thought leader. They don’t want to pursue roles in people management. They have a desire for autonomy, flexibility. They want to make an impact. Things I’m learning from Tim is they have a real drive to make a difference. They want to lead with purpose and that sort of thing, but they’re just decoupling it from the idea of do I need to be a manager, a people manager to do that? I don’t think it’s a rejection of leadership as much as just a refusal to accept traditional management ideas.

Perry Holley:
What we currently define a leader to be. But I thought that’s why I grabbed this topic was I think how we Always talk a lot about leadership and what it really means. And here is if you view it as a position or a title and you being the boss, you’re already off base.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And I think as we go through this, you’re gonna really see and understand where Perry’s coming from and content learn from. From Tim. But you strategically use the word people manager. And I think that is extremely key as we go forward because we’re. We define leadership and those that have been around the Maxwell world and followed us for a long time understand it’s really just all about influence. So the question that this poses is, well, hey, then where does that influence come from? And then maybe even how do I use that influence moving forward? Because you can be a leader and not have a title. We talk about this all the time.

Chris Goede:
If you have the right kind of influence with those that you work with, you work for and can completely have influence and lead people in certain areas without having that title or being a people manager. Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Well, some of the consultants I was reading, they said that they’re seeing trends of they’re seeking to become thought leaders and specialists. They’re more interested in building their personal brand.

Chris Goede:
I can see that.

Perry Holley:
And developing niche expertise and contributing to meaningful projects. I personally don’t think this is a problem. Is that not every organization where I’ve ever led, not everybody on the team. I’m not even thinking about generationally. Not everybody wanted to be a manager.

Chris Goede:
Not everybody wanted my brother, he’s like, I ain’t doing it.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, yeah. But there’s some that just. I love this. This shows you the value of the Gen Z is that they’re not just saying, I’m going to sit here and do a minimum, you know, job, minimum wage, minimum. I’m not going to climb, I’m not going to grow. They’re just saying, I don’t prefer not to be in management. But they want to grow their personal brand, their personal expertise. I love that.

Perry Holley:
When he said thought leaders, I thought, man, that takes a lot. I mean, I can have a point of view and an opinion, but to be a thought leader, you’ve got to put some work in to developing a direction for that. So I think it’s probably a good thing just to recognize. But you said something critical a minute ago about leading without a title. And I think that’s where. Yeah, where I would probably focus on.

Chris Goede:
And this leads us right into the foundation of why Perry and I do what we do in this podcast. It’s based off of John’s five levels of leadership methodology and how we’ve seen that shape the culture and the leadership experience of individuals that have titles and don’t have titles in organizations.

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Chris Goede:
So let’s talk about some ways that leaders can then work with their younger teammates. So first, you need to make sure that you understand what are their goals and aspirations for each person on your team. Matter of fact, not even based off of being a Gen Z.

Perry Holley:
Right.

Chris Goede:
You see a Gen Z walk through your team and you’re like, well, I gotta go find out what their, you know, their aspirations are, the goals that should be with every single one of your teams. Because it’s your job as a leader to lead them in that area of growth and expertise to hopefully allow them to flourish in those areas that they desire to learn. Yeah.

Perry Holley:
If you know what they’re aiming for and what their goals and aspirations are, then I say the second step is I want to make sure you have a personal development plan. This is so critical to doing growing in any area, whether you’re a Gen Z or anyone. But do you have a plan to if you want to become a thought leader, that doesn’t happen by accident. So if you want to become the best in your field, whether you’re a manager or not, we’ve got to be developing ourselves. And I think, generationally speaking, that these younger folks are driven. They’re more into that personal development than some of the previous generations, and it can really play to their advantage.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. The data would suggest these days that in the top three of why younger generations are picking certain jobs between the options that they have is they were presented with a career and a personal development plan as part of their package. And that is extremely, extremely important to them. Third, you need to make sure everyone understands that leadership is influenced. What we talk about on this podcast and then look for ways creatively, without a title, without people, management side, how do they increase their influence across organizations? One way that you could really live this out is as you have exposure to different projects or different things that are going on cross functionally and you know you have a skill set of someone on your team that’s in that younger generation, man, just offer them as a service to be able to walk alongside that team or to speak into that team and see what it’s like. That way they’re continuing to get exposed to different leaders across the organization, but then also increasing their influence with those that were in those teams or in those meetings. That’ll be a great little value add for them that they will be very appreciative of.

Perry Holley:
I like that a lot. You know, I was just thinking in our last, last two weeks we spoke with Jenny Catron about culture and culture matters, and I wonder what you think about something you said a while ago that these Gen Z’s, they’re saying that I want to consciously unbox, I don’t want to be a boss because of what I’m seeing tells me that it’s high stress, low value, low reward. Why would I want to put myself to that? But I’m thinking, how does that play to culture? I’ve actually worked some places where. And I did climb the corporate ladder. I went up to executive levels. But there are some times I think, why are you doing this? Because it was torturous. But it was. Was that a culture issue? I wonder what you think about that.

Perry Holley:
Do you think if you have the right culture, the leadership can be very attractive because it is purposeful. We are driven by core values. We are doing things intentionally. I’m wondering how much of a disconnect there is about what they’re seeing in poor cultures that says, I don’t want to be a part of that. But are there places where they said, no, I’d be a part of that?

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I, I think that is the case. I think if the purpose is there, the development is there, I think the missional part of it, I think you can capture their heart and if they’re skilled, to be able to do it and walk alongside them. I also wonder. I was thinking about this while you were asking the question, which was not only what they have experienced, but could it also have been what they heard at home when their parents were actively working about leadership, about management, and they just, through osmosis would hear all this and then have those expectations. Because I think, you know, culture is a buzzword values are a buzzword. I wonder if it was, you know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. It’d be interesting to see where that comes from because I do think if there is purpose, there’s a development plan, there’s a missional connection, I think you can get them to lead people in that direction.

Perry Holley:
Well, something else just occurred to me that we talk about. One of the problems we’ve seen in a lot of our coaching work is that leaders have been promoted based on their extreme success. At a previous level you were a great, and John would say soloist to a conductor, you were a great soloist. And now, hey, you’re so good at that, why don’t you conduct? And then you get thrown into a role you’re not prepared for, you haven’t been trained for, you haven’t developed for, and now you’re the boss. And that’s an ugly situation because you, you feel set up for failure. Yeah, you’re set up for failure. So I want to go back to our steps. So if you know what you’re trying to.

Perry Holley:
Their goals are and you personally develop them. Leadership development before they need it, not after they need it. Everybody should be being developed as leaders whether they have a title or not. That then many of them might say, hey, now I understand what leadership really is. I might like to try that. Like nobody’s not all of any group’s going to want to be in leadership. But I think there’s a lot of negative things that are coming at them and say why would I want to be a part of this and do that? One article I read ask if Gen Z’s preference for that flat structure and expertise driven leadership would cause companies to rethink their overall management structure. Like is all management going to change how we do hierarchical structures to a flat structure? And I know many of the organizations we work with are already operating the flat structures.

Perry Holley:
In fact, I think this conscious unbossing might be good news for those organizations because they’re struggling. I’ve had more than one company that people love working there so much, nobody ever leaves and there’s nowhere to go. There’s no promotion to be had. And so they’re losing people because they think there’s no room. If I want to get promoted, I got to go somewhere else. Well, if you have a bunch of people that don’t want to be promoted, they just want to be best at what they do. Be thought leaders, be experts, that’d be great. So I think part of this is already happening.

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
And what we’re Saying is because we define leadership as influence, Gen Z is not turning away from influence. As a matter of fact, I would say if you ask them, they would want more influence. Maybe a different type of influence we’re talking about on the podcast today. But they want to be an influencer, right? That has different KPIs than just being and have an influence inside the organization. But they’re really turning away from a specific type of leadership management that they, they just don’t connect with or that they’ve heard horror stories. Right. They want to lead in ways that align with their values through their expertise, collaboration and personal growth. And so there is definitely an opportunity out there for us as leaders and organizations to tap into what you just shared with us today.

Chris Goede:
So as we wrap up, let me, let me give you a couple of thoughts. Especially if you’re leading a team and you have multi generations on the team, by the way, that is the norm. And most of the people that we work with in organizations and culture and coaching, this is where this is coming from, right? Perry’s bringing it straight from the field and the coaching goals. A differentiator for you as an organization, especially as you’re looking to retain and attract top talent out there, you have to have a differentiator. Your top three things should be throughout the interview process, throughout the leading process of these individuals. Number one is make sure there’s purpose, alignment, and you tie the purpose to what they’re doing to the bigger picture of why they joined the organization. Because more than likely they also have that missional bent and that’s why they joined the organization. So what is the purpose of what they’re doing tied to the missional event? And if you can keep that relevant, they’re going to stay engaged, they’re going to want to grow and they’re going to want to lead.

Chris Goede:
And then also I think talking about growing, man, make sure they have a career development plan and lead them through that. Which brings me to the third point. Show them a different side of leadership. And that’s why I was saying lead them through that. Because if you follow the five levels of leadership model and you really understand that all the work is going to be done at levels 2, 3 and 4. And you model that for them, they’re going to see something that either their mom and dad came home, didn’t talk about as a leadership style, or maybe even as they were growing up and through high school and worked some hourly jobs where it was command and control, because I said so. And they’re all about you know, just, just, just get it done. Just do it because I said so.

Chris Goede:
They don’t know what they don’t know and so expose them to that different type of leadership and I think, I think they’ll engage with it.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of positive here to growing these leaders. You know, if they’re all about impact then like you just said, if they had that great model of what real leadership is, there’s no greater way to have impact than they impact lives and the results at the same time. So great conversation. Thank you. If you’d like to learn more about this topic, if you’d like to see the learner guide, learn more about our offerings, you can do all that at maxwellleadership.com/podcast. You can also leave us a comment or a question. We love hearing from you. So grateful you’d spend this time with us.

Perry Holley:
That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.